How to Overcome Social Anxiety | Dr. Nick Epley

Dr. Nick Epley:
Social anxiety is something we really can help people with. Essentially, the strategy is very simple. If you are afraid of talking with a stranger or having a deep conversation, the way to get over that is not to simulate it or to imagine. It's not like you get up and you give a pretend speech. That's what psychologists were doing for years. It doesn't work because it's still pretending. It has to be real. You send people out in the world and to do the thing for real. You're worried about getting rejected, go out and start asking people for help, and you'll learn that your fear is misplaced, that you get accepted more often than you might guess. Exposing people to that thing that they're anxious of when the belief is misplaced, and with social anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced. That's what we find over and over again, is a mistaken barrier to connecting with other people. That's how you ease that social anxiety and get rid of it. Not because you dull your anxiety so much. It's because you change your beliefs about what other people are like.

Andrew Huberman:
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley is a behavioral scientist at the University of Chicago and an expert researcher on the science of social connection. What's different about today's conversation in the context of social connection is that it doesn't just center on improving relationships with friends or family or coworkers. We do talk about that, but we also talk about the smaller, everyday conversations that we have with people that we don't know so well, and the positive impact that that can have on mental and physical health. Now, I want to be clear. We're not talking about engaging in small talk for small talk's sake. We're talking about taking opportunities to connect with people once or several times per day, and the tremendous benefits that can have for people's mental and physical health, including yours. We also talk a lot about the assumptions that we tend to make about other people, both in real life and online, and how those actually match up with reality. We also talk about Nick Epley himself, because his life strongly has informed his research. We talk about his biological and his adopted children, raising a child with additional needs, and the incredible joy and growth those choices have brought him and his family by virtue of the sorts of social connections that they've brought. I must say, today's conversation went a lot of places that I did not anticipate, and it certainly inspired me to look differently at everyday interactions as far from trivial, and in fact, key to the fabric of social connection and our mental and physical health. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley, welcome.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Andrew Huberman:
We make a lot of assumptions about other people, and in my case, because I have a new puppy, about animals. We're always thinking that we know what other beings are thinking.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But as you pointed out, and as a colleague of mine in neurosciences, Dr. Karl Deisseroth, has pointed out, most of the time we don't even know what we're thinking.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
There's stuff going on in there, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... we're not that good at thinking, "Oh, that last thought was a complete sentence that means blank." That's not how the human mind works.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
So usually, when we hear the word anthropomorphism, we're talking about humans making assumptions about other animals.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
But humans are animals.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
We just happen to be the curators of the planet.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
So why and how do we anthropomorphize about other people, and how does it hurt us, and how does it help us?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. So I think the way to think about anthropomorphism is that what we are doing is we're trying to understand what's going on within another agent, essentially. And so anything that acts independently, right? You got a ball rolling across the table. If something else bumps into it and it moves in perfect deflection off of it, you don't need anything to explain why that ball moved as it did. But if this ball is coming across the table, another one hits it, and it just keeps going or it goes some other direction, well, then it seems like there's something going on inside that thing that might be driving it, right? And that thing that's inside that ball might be a mind. Right? Might be a set of thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, some kind of psychology that's pushing it. At least that's the way we interpret what an independent agent might be doing. We do this when we think about other people, right? You're nodding your head now. I think you're thinking about something, right? You move this way or that. You wanted to do this thing or that thing. We do that same kind of mind reading, right, with non-human agents, animals, gods sometimes, the planet, even ourselves, right? We reflect on ourselves. We have experience, at least, with having certain mental states come to mind, and we use that experience as a guide to what's going on in other people, too. That kind of anthropomorphism, that kind of mind reading, right, where we infer others' thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, that's helpful to us for at least two reasons. One is it gives me some sense of why you're doing what you're doing now. It allows me to understand what you're doing right now. Are you trying to be kind? You trying to be aggressive? Are you trying to be friendly? But it also is pretty good at allowing me to predict what you're likely to do next.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So if I think you feel hungry, well, you're going to go try to eat something. If I think you don't like me very well, you're going to behave a particular way towards me. So this kind of mental state inference, this kind of mind reading, serves us pretty well for getting around in a social world. Don't always get it right, but in general, it's better than not doing it at all.

Andrew Huberman:
So as we make assumptions about others and their intentions and their past-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... choices in some cases, right, like if somebody hits somebody else, we make an assumption about the certain things might have led up to that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, right.

Andrew Huberman:
Are we mainly paying attention to behavior?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
And/or are we paying attention to What they seem to be paying attention to.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So-called theory of mind.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. So it depends a lot on what kind of environment we're in. We think about the minds of others in lots and lots of different contexts. My wife right now is back home in Illinois. I can think about what she might want for dinner, or what she's feeling at any given time. We can think about people when they're not present. We can think about strangers, people we know nothing about. I write a book. I'm trying to think about how will people understand this book, right? These are all cases where there's not somebody in front of us at all. And when we're doing that, particularly with strangers, people we know nothing about, things we know nothing about, then the one thing we have at our disposal is ourselves. We can use our own minds. So if I walk into a classroom and I think it's kind of cold in here, well, I can assume that other people will think it's cold too. I'm using myself as a guide. Once I know a little more maybe about you, I learn that you're a PhD from Stanford, I learn that somebody is an athlete or whatever. I learn something about you. You're a doctor or you're a lawyer. Then I can use that information, my beliefs about groups of people as a guide. That's stereotyping. And stereotypes contain a fair bit of accuracy to them. If I know that you're a Democrat or a Republican, I can make some reasonable inferences about other thoughts you might have, other beliefs you might have. Not perfect, but better than chance guessing. And then once I see you, like what we're doing right now, if I can see you, then I'm watching your behavior, and then behavior dominates. Behavior, though, is tricky. I'm watching you. You could have two people kissing. They seem delightfully in love. They seem just so nice together. And you can make one set of inferences when you see that happening based on that. You can infer what's going on behind that based on what you're seeing. And when we can see the behavior in front of us, that's then what we're paying most attention to. But each of these different mechanisms, egocentrism, stereotyping, and behaviorism, when we might think about working backwards from your behavior, they all give us some accuracy, but they also create some error. Egocentrism creates egocentric biases. I assume that you think more like I do than you actually do. Stereotyping tends to create a different set of mistakes. I tend to think that groups are more distinct and different from each other than they actually are because stereotypes are about the defining features of groups, which tends to exaggerate the differences between groups. And when it comes to behavior, I tend to assume a simpler, more simplistic mind behind that behavior than actually exists. Psychologists refer to this as the correspondence bias. I tend to infer an intention or set of beliefs or attitudes that corresponds with your behavior as I see it. So if I see you hit somebody, I might assume you are an aggressive person. That's how I interpret right away. Had I known it was in self-defense, then I would interpret it very differently. But we tend to leap to mental states or intentions from behavior. Sometimes that can get us into trouble when the relationship between intentions or thoughts and behavior is a little complicated. So each of those gets us some accuracy, but each of them also creates some error.

Andrew Huberman:
If you are willing, I'd like to return to the example you gave at the beginning of a ball rolling on a table and another ball striking it-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... or not.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
In the second example you gave, the ball simply takes off on a different trajectory, and you said that we're going to make some assumption that the ball has something like a mind.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Some agency. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Something controlling its decisions. What I'm about to say reflects a strong bias, which is that I've long been interested in the visual system-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of non-human and human primates-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Uh-huh

Andrew Huberman:
... because we are so visual, and the eyes are two pieces of the brain. They're the only pieces of the brain in healthy individuals that are outside the cranial vault, and they give us a lot of information.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think people know that-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... but I don't think they appreciate just how much information they give us.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
Not just pupil size and whether or not our gaze is locked with theirs. All that's true too, but if I could just alter your experiment for a second. Let's say that first ball had eyes.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And it's rolling forward-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but then the eyes shift to the left-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... and then the ball goes to the left. Now I have additional information.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
I have a window, literally, into the brain where I can say, "What's over there that might have motivated that decision?"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think with humans, we do this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? If somebody's going down the street just swinging their arms wildly and hitting people, we think, "This person's out of control. They're crazy." Whereas if they see somebody, then they orient their gaze toward them, now we start making all sorts of assumptions about the operations of that mind.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And in my worldview, no pun intended, the eyes are the best source of information about intent, about goals, et cetera.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So limiting the conversation to conditions where we can see the other person and what they see-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... are there any examples of our judgments about other people's thoughts and behavior, et cetera, improving by virtue of that?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So-

Andrew Huberman:
So the eyes do provide-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, the eyes have a lot

Andrew Huberman:
... valid information.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay.

Dr. Nick Epley:
The voice also contains an awful lot.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So that's the other thing we spend a lot of time studying. But we are the most socially sophisticated primate species on the planet. We have a brain uniquely equipped for connecting with the minds of others, and that means that we are hypersensitive to certain things. The eyes are one of them. There's this great paper in 2008 on the cultural intelligence hypothesis, it's a science paper, where they compared, they tried to assess what is it that makes humans sort of unique on this planet. And they compared a little over 100 2-year-old toddlers. Imagine running this experiment, if you would. A little over 100 2-year-old toddlers. This was done at the Max Planck Institute in Germany, one of the Max Plancks. Over 100 chimpanzees, and then just for good measure, another 36 orangutans who apparently had nothing better to do.

Andrew Huberman:
What a fun experiment.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Isn't it crazy? Yeah. It's crazy.

Andrew Huberman:
Exhausting, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Exactly.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Man, I can't... Yeah. I would like to know the background of details of this, how it was actually done and how long it took. But what they did essentially is ran Each of these groups through two different kinds of IQ tests you might think of them as One was an IQ test involving physical objects. So things like tracking where a reward was placed under a shell game or using a tool to solve some kind of problem. Psychologists once believed, biologists once believed that tool use was what made humans unique until Jane Goodall watched the chimpanzees using twigs to get termites out of a termite mound. On the physical IQ test problems, the human toddlers, the adult chimps, and the orangutans performed equally well. There wasn't a difference. It's not reasoning about physical things in space that make us unique. The other group of IQ problems were social problems, where it required reasoning about the mind of another person. And this involved doing things like tracking where someone's eyes are looking in order to monitor what somebody is thinking, because we tend to look at things we're thinking about and think about things we're looking at. If I want to know what's on your mind, what's governing your attention, I want to be really good at tracking your eyes. And we are amazing at this as human beings. I can tell whether you're looking at me right now or looking at my right ear from this far away without any trouble. I can tell from 50 feet away whether you're looking at me or looking at 10 feet above me. We're amazingly good at this. Super sensitive to this. I couldn't calculate the angle on a roof if you gave me a month and an arm load of protractors to do it, but I can detect the angle in your eyes in an instant. Also involve things like being able to understand somebody's intentions from their actions. So if I reach out for this glass of water and I miss it, you can infer I'm thirsty and I want a drink. You could hand me the glass, Nick, if I wanted a drink. Because you could read my mind, essentially. You could infer my thoughts. When they tested the two-year-old toddlers, the chimps, and the orangutans in these social IQ tests, that's where the two-year-old toddlers were shining. That's where we were crushing the competition on those social IQ problems. You can do this in front of a chimpanzee all day long, and they will do nothing for you. Nothing for you. I do that in front of you, and you can hand me the glass of water super easily. So yes, the eyes give us a lot, and we are extremely sensitive to all of those social cues that might convey what's on the mind of another person, because it allows me to anticipate what you're doing before you do it.

Andrew Huberman:
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Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And I'd be curious to know, A, if that's true, what else it conveys, and also how much prior exposure to voice matters. Today's the first time I've met you.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't know what your voice normally sounds like in this context.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
So I'm just operating off what I've got.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So what's in voice? What's not in voice?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And what are we aware of? What are we not aware of?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, so there are lots of things contained in the voice because it is very closely connected to your mind. You notice that your eyes are. Your eyes are close. But your voice is also very closely connected to your online conscious experience. You are speaking while you are thinking. And as you're having thoughts, your voice can reflect authentically what's going on in your mind. So when I speed up, you can tell I'm kind of excited about something. When my voice varies in pitch, you can tell if I'm enthusiastic or not, or kind of sad about something. You can pick up a lot about what's actually going on in the mind by listening to a person's voice. And there are a couple of things that we've studied in our research. One is voice just contains a lot of information that allows us to understand other people better. Right? So if you compare typing to somebody versus talking to them, the voice allows you to determine things like intentionality, to differentiate when you're telling a joke or being sarcastic than when you're not. Right? "Well, typed is..." "This is so funny." Right? We think when we're sending off an email to somebody. Seems funny to us because we know this is meant to be a joke. Person on the other end doesn't realize the comment about this person's aunt or brother or whatever was meant to be a joke and they're all offended, right? But if you say this in your voice, sarcasm is crystal clear. Interestingly, what we find, and this is because of egocentrism in part, we're not always so sensitive to how our own communication is interpreted by another person. Because we know what we're thinking when we're conveying something, we tend to think we'll be understood equally well whether we're typing or talking, but of course, on the receiving end, it varies a lot. So voice contains a lot of information and allows us to understand what somebody's saying better. But what we also find, which I think is, at least from my perspective, also interesting, is that the voice also conveys the presence of mind. I don't have access to your thinking, to your reasoning, to what's going on between your ears. I can only watch from the outside, right? And I get cues. I can see your visual gaze, but I can also hear you. The voice contains a lot of cues to the presence of mind. When you're really thinking hard about something, your voice slows down and you deliberate. And that variability in the pace of your voice kind of tells me that your mind is alive. Just like I can tell that you're biologically alive because you're moving, your voice also moves, and it tells me you got a lively mind. It conveys the presence of emotion. It can convey the presence of thinking. So when we have partisans, for instance. We did this with Juliana Schroeder, who was one of my amazing PhD students from years ago. She's now on the faculty at Berkeley at Haas. We had people, this was on the eve of the 2016 election between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. We had people who were voting for Trump or Clinton say why they were voting for the candidate they were voting for, and they gave a verbal pitch. And we could get a few different cues from this. We could get an audio recorded clip, so we could see and hear the person. We could just get their voice. And we could also strip out their voice and just see the content of their text, right, to see the words they were saying. They also wrote a pitch about an explanation for why they were voting for this particular candidate. Okay? What we then did is we had people watch and listen, listen, read the transcript, or read the written explanation and say, essentially, how mindful is this person? How thoughtful are they? How thoughtful, how intelligent, how rational, how capable of experiencing emotions are they? Essentially, they're asking, are you a mindful, intelligent person, or are you kind of just like a mindless idiot? Are you human-like, or are you kind of not human-like, more like a rock? And what we found was that when people could hear what the person had to say, either while also seeing them or just with their voice, they rated the person, particularly when they disagreed with them, when there was a person on the other side, as more thoughtful, more intelligent, more rational. This tendency to dehumanize the other side, to think of them as mindless idiots, was dramatically reduced when you actually heard what the other person has to say. So I think the voice, along with the eyes, along with eye gaze, but the voice gives us a lot of information, allows us to understand what's on somebody's mind, and it also allows us something deeper. It allows me to tell you that you've got a mind, that you have one.

Andrew Huberman:
It's very interesting. The vision piece I'm familiar with for reasons I stated before. The physical behavior piece makes a lot of sense. The voice piece as a reflection of an active mind is something I really haven't considered. We'll hear sometimes that the content of people's words is less informative than-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... the timbre of their voice-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... or something like that. I don't know that I completely believe that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
No.

Andrew Huberman:
I think that's a '90s, it's like an '80s, '90s pop psychology-ism.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
Right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
That is a highly stylized experimental result.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right? So you will sometimes hear in this pop psych world that 80% of what's communicated is communicated through paralinguistic. That obviously is not true. I'm not going to be able to tell you about my book just by using the tone of my voice.

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So that is that certain-

Andrew Huberman:
Words matter.

Dr. Nick Epley:
The words certainly do matter.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
But above and beyond that, there are other things that matter in a person's voice that at least we find people aren't so sensitive to. So when we ask, for instance, when we ask our MBA students to give an elevator pitch, as Juliana and I did in one of our experiments. Give an elevator pitch for their desired job, the job they want most, right? Why should this company hire you? They can give it with their voice, so we do the audio and visual. We do just the audio. We pull out the transcript, just get the words. Or they type their pitch. We then have people watch and listen, listen, or read these pitches and say, "How intelligent does this person seem to be? How hireable does this person seem to be?" And we've done this both with people who imagine working for companies and also with Fortune 500 recruiters, too. The person seems more intelligent, more rational, more thoughtful, more hireable when you hear what they have to say. And yet the MBA students themselves think they'll be judged equally on those two. They're not. And when we ask a separate group of people, "If you wanted to communicate with somebody in a way that would make you seem most intelligent Overwhelmingly, people say, "I'd rather write."

Andrew Huberman:
Hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And the thinking behind that, I think, is that people think they can edit and such. But what they're missing is that the sound of your voice conveys a lot more. It conveys the fact that you have a mind. Because I can't see it, and I can't read it in your dead text, right? Your dead text has none of the paralinguistic cues or features. Really talented writers, novelists can do this. But mostly, your text is dead. It doesn't have intonation. It doesn't change its pitch. It doesn't show me thinking while it's actually happening, and people don't seem to realize that.

Andrew Huberman:
What does this reveal to us about AI? Because people are spending more and more time with AI on AI.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And what comes back is text. There are versions of it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And soon, I imagine there will be elaborated versions-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of it with-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... avatars or even video-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, for sure

Andrew Huberman:
... AI. Are you generally enthusiastic about what that could bring in terms of better understanding other humans? Because I could imagine a world where I can't reach you, but I could go on AI and say, "Hey, Nick." I would just do it directly.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
"Hey, Nick. I'm really curious. I'm going to the Midwest, where you're from, and I'm super interested in culturally, what's the best way that I could connect with someone around this, this, and this?"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Given the content on the internet-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... the LLM should be able to have a video of you deliver to me what you would say.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
We're pretty close to it. That can be better than a bullet point list?

Dr. Nick Epley:
It will, yeah. So people will find it more believable, I think. But a lot of the things that people turn to AI for now are for facts, for actual information, for text. But I do think increasingly it's going to be used for social stuff.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
People feel lonely, disconnected. They need a friend. I'm friends with Liz Dunn, who's a fabulous psychologist at the University of British Columbia, and she told me that they're starting to do research about allowing people to practice having conversations with AI before they actually have a conversation with another person, like a conflict.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I can see ways in which AI could be used to do lots of things. I can also see obvious problems with it. If I'm connecting with the AI and I'm not connecting with other humans, I can see problems with it. But I think in terms of the presence versus absence of voice, I do think voice will allow us, to the extent that it's good and perfect, sounds like a human voice. My prediction would be that you can trust it more when you hear what it has to say, as long as it mimics, really well, a human voice.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Because you'd anthropomorphize it just like you do another person.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't want to spend too much time on politics, but I can't help but ask this next question. Way back when Bush was president-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... second one.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
I recall there was a lot of discussion around people who voted for him saying, "He's the kind of guy you'd want to have a beer with."

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Which I interpreted as there's something about his style of speech-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... which was very everyday.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And we don't have to talk about current candidates and politicians. Not to avoid it. I don't tap dance around anything these days. But I think that nowadays we have a lot of access to people talking on video.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
When you and I were growing up, I think we're more or less the same age.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
There would be a presidential address, or there'd be a campaign, and you'd hear from people, but it was very limited. You didn't get so much-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... exposure to people.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So now we have more and more information-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... about voice, about behavior, about decision-making, depending on the resolution, where their eyes are going.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
Do you think that we're getting better at assessing public figures, or are we getting worse at assessing public figures?

Dr. Nick Epley:
That's a good question. I think that'll take me too far out on a limb. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. There's so much information that we have-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... now. But the other thing, too, is that the way we evaluate other people, and this is central to a lot of our research, other people are ambiguous. They're not crystal clear. That same thing that I say to you that I mean to be a joke can sound really hostile or violent to another person. It can sound really awful and be taken as offensive. So I think that's what makes my work as a psychologist so interesting. In the early 1900s, when social psychology, my field in cognitive psychology, started, it came out of basically biology and vision sciences and basic sensory perception, thinking that we could understand human thinking and measure it, measure our judgments about each other in the same way that we measure how people evaluate hot and cold and stuff like that. But it turns out that other people are very ambiguous. It's not always so crystal clear. And so two people with a different set of beliefs or attitudes or perspectives on the situation can look at the very same stimulus and see totally different things. A lot of our judgment is not happening out there coming to us. It's happening in here interpreting what we're seeing. And in the world of politics, everyone who's listening to this podcast knows just how ambiguous things are. Somebody says something, and the right will interpret it this way, the left will interpret it that way. It's known as my side bias. Even the very same stimulus. So there is this sense that if we get more and more and more information, then we'll understand people better. That's not necessarily true. If we come into these perceptions, into viewing these things with very different starting points or very different perspectives to begin with.

Andrew Huberman:
You've worked a lot on this notion of under-socialization.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
If I may, I'd like to invert it for today's conversation and talk a little bit less through the lens of how bad it is if we're under-socialized and explore instead how good it is if we do socialize.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Not because I have to make things positive-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but because ultimately, I think actions to socialize more are going to be useful.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
I'm tempted to set this up as an experiment

Dr. Nick Epley:
Ah.

Andrew Huberman:
So as with the example of the balls you gave before

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... in the most deprived condition, a human is in total isolation.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay. So, another condition is they can, let's just say, text with somebody else

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but they can't see them, they've never seen them.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Then we can ratchet that up.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
They've seen them before, they can make a phone call, they can do video chat, they're in person.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
I can see a million excellent arguments for why in-person interaction is good

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... but what is the evidence that the other forms of social interaction are good also? We hear so much about how they're bad

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... but we also hear about the isolation crisis.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And so we've sort of, I've lumped-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... the more deprived versions of socialization in with isolation.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And I'm not sure that I accept that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I'm not trying to counter your work. I don't know enough about it to do it-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... I'm not qualified to anyway.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But is texting with a friend healthy?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
As opposed to spending time alone?

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay.

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure.

Andrew Huberman:
In-person time clearly being the best.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It's a little better, although going from no contact to some contact is the big leap.

Andrew Huberman:
Tell me more.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So being isolated, so spending a day alone is pretty miserable. So when psychologists look at this, this comes from a famous paper by Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton, both Nobel Prize winners in economics, neither of them economists, that looked at the Gallup daily wellbeing poll. And they call people up every day and they ask them how you're feeling today, in a number of different ways. They actually ask you about the day before. "Yesterday. Did you enjoy yesterday? Did you feel enjoyment yesterday? Did you smile yesterday? Did you experience sadness yesterday? Did you experience stress yesterday?" So they ask about these different measures of wellbeing. They also ask about all kinds of other things, like how much money you're making, are you religious or not, they know how much insurance you have, whether you're surveyed on a weekend or a weekday. They also ask you, "Did you spend yesterday entirely alone or not?" And when they do that, you can compare the effects of things like social isolation, being alone versus not, against these other things. It turns out the difference between spending yesterday alone versus somebody else, the difference in your wellbeing on these other measures, is about seven times bigger than being relatively high or low on their income measure, which is about a $60,000 difference between these two groups. That being alone is bad. That's a bad day. Okay? And having connections with other people improves it pretty dramatically. Above and beyond that, it does matter. It is better, those interactions, but now you're adding good things to what was already somewhat a good thing. Plus, we also need to unpack a little bit what these different media do. They're good for different things, and we don't always use them in the ways that are right, but I think, in many ways, we do. Like if I send you a text or I send my wife a text. She's back in Illinois today. We've been married for nearly 30 years. It'll be 30 years in August this year. We know a ton about each other. I can send her a heart when I'm feeling love, and I'm going to send her to let her know that, and that's going to lift her up a little bit. That's going to feel good. We already have a relationship. That's establishing just some contact. Texting is great for that. It can allow us to stay in contact with somebody. It is not good for building a relationship necessarily over time. Like if we're going to spend a half hour typing to each other, it's not a good way to spend that half hour. I'd be much better at picking the phone and talking to you to help establish that relationship. But absolutely, the ability to reach out and connect with other people frequently, as texting is used out in the world, can allow us to stay connected. Now, if that's the only thing we're doing, if we're not actually spending time developing more meaningful relationships with people, that's not going to be as good as it could be. But you started this by asking about sociality more generally, and why is being social good for us? The fact of the matter is, even with our imperfections in thinking about the minds of others, we are highly social. Just the ability to think in the level of sophistication that we do about the minds of other people shows how important sociality is for us, and you see the importance of sociality just almost everywhere you look. The way our brain is organized. So our neocortex is massive relative to the rest of our brain, compared to our nearest primate relatives, the chimpanzees. A lot of that stuff is good for social stuff. For theory of mind use, for keeping track of who knows what and who you should trust and who you should avoid. Living in large social groups is complicated. And the size of our brain reflects that complication. If you look across primate species, the size of the neocortex relative to the rest of the brain is correlated with, this is work on the social brain hypothesis. The size of the neocortex relative to the rest of the brain is correlated with the social complexity of the group the primate species lives in. Our brains are built to be social. Also, for most of human history, being alone and isolated is a death sentence. You can't live on your own. We depend on each other for survival. That also means that we have a neural architecture that is desperately trying to keep us connected with other people. And so when you spend a day alone, the reason why it feels like crap, as my late colleague and friend John Cacioppo, who was at the University of Chicago, studied loneliness, really was the world's expert on loneliness, noted that your neural architecture is screaming at you when you are alone to reach out and connect with other people. That's why loneliness feels bad. And that's why the opposite of loneliness feels so good. Like getting a hug, that feels good. Your brain is trying to tell you, "Get out there and connect with other people." So when you're lonely, you get spikes in cortisol in your bloodstream that compromises your cardiovascular functioning, that compromises your immune system. That's why being lonely can make you sick, and why it can shorten your life. You also see that the opposite of loneliness, connecting with other people, just feels darn good. That's your brain telling you, that's your body telling you, "Yeah, do this a little more often. This is really good." So when you have that little conversation with a stranger, like I did coming in, I had this amazing- ... conversation. It was actually a very deep, hard conversation with my Uber driver, who was Iranian. Had lost a son in a protest. Shot in the neck years ago-

Andrew Huberman:
In Iran

Dr. Nick Epley:
... in there. In Iran, yeah. Very painful, but also very meaningful. Connected us to each other. Felt a very strong bond with each other in the moment. That's your brain telling you that's the kind of thing that we're built for, right? Because living alone for most of human history was a bad thing. So we are hyper-social agents interested in connecting with other people. It doesn't always mean we know exactly how to do it or that we get it right, but going from nothing to something is a huge leap for us, and texting can sometimes help us do that.

Andrew Huberman:
One comment, one question. Sometimes I like a day alone.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, for sure.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't often get it-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Everybody does. Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but that's because I don't spend time around lots of people, but I spend a lot of time around a certain set of people. I adore them, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... sometimes it's nice to get that space. But one thing that I've noticed, because when I was a graduate student, I'd run these experiments often during the holidays, because I worked on developmental neurobiology. I didn't have a choice if the-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... if my experimental subjects were a certain postnatal age, I was working -

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... that day.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
It was my... After all.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And there's this kind of interesting idea that I'm not sure I subscribe to, but... Well, that I do subscribe to, forgive me, that there's something about us as humans that we really like to create action at a distance. And I don't know if there's a sex difference here, but I think it's like young boys like to create rockets or remote control car. You have boys-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Or fire a gun

Andrew Huberman:
... you know.

Dr. Nick Epley:
You fire a gun.

Andrew Huberman:
Or see something happen over there-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... that you controlled in a-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... in a meaningful way. And it doesn't have to be violent, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
We did rockets and guns-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep

Andrew Huberman:
... but it could've, could be something else. But this is somewhat philosophical more than it's scientific, but could it be that if we spend too much time alone, we've got all this stuff in our mind, and it's very hard to create some sort of reverberation or action at a distance that we know reflects us. And I wonder if our unconscious mind actually gets to the question, like, do I even exist?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
Now, of course, we know we exist.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Huh.

Andrew Huberman:
We can touch our limbs-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and, but the social isolation fear, if I've got fridge full of food and I've got music and I've got audiobooks, that's all incoming.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But at some point, you do get a little... I know because I've spent days upon days doing experiments back when by myself, but you get a little weird.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Your thoughts get a little distorted.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And it's almost like you know there's stuff out there, but if you spend enough time away from it, it kind of messes with your head a little bit.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And then, of course, we think of the Ted Kaczynski types-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and these extremes of people-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... that have gone into isolation.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
There's that movie about the true story, the guy that goes into the wilderness.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, Eddie Vedder wrote the soundtrack to that movie.

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
And I love it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
"Into the Wild."

Andrew Huberman:
That's right. And-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. McKenna's, right? McKenna's?

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think he wrote at the end, the connection with people is the thing.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
He had this romantic view-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of going out into-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right

Andrew Huberman:
... the wilderness by himself, or we think of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... "Walden Pond" and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... we romanticize-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... this thing about being alone for extended amounts of time. But I think it raises real questions about whether or not we're even there. It's sort of the most existential version of like, if a tree falls in the woods-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and no one's there, did it make a sound? It's sort of like, if we have thoughts and emotions and experiences, and there's no one else around-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... to reflect those, for them to have impact on, do we even exist?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And this might be some hardwiring here. I'm getting almost Freudian, and so forgive me, I'm not a psychologist.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. I... Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But I'm curious what your thoughts are about the relationship between the fear of isolation, our need for our thoughts and desires and behaviors to have some sort of reverberation-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... out there.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Some responsiveness to us or something.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, some confirmation that we're actually here.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. I think the closest research to this, to the extent that there is research on this, is what happens to people, prisoners who are put in solitary confinement.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is not good for their mental health. It's not good for their sense of selves, for who they are. They do lose a sense of themselves. There's not great research on this because you can't randomly assign people to be isolated for long periods of time, right?

Andrew Huberman:
Thank goodness.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, thank goodness.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes. That's why we have IRBs, right?

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Dr. Nick Epley:
But that experience, I think, is very real. When you were talking about this, it made me think of research in the early 1900s, these theories from sociologists, that the way we understand ourselves is through other people. The way I know who I am, what I'm like as a person, who Nick is, is from talking with you, Andrew, and when we are in conversation, that's when I'm learning about myself. You're telling me about myself. I'm having thoughts that I'm sharing with you. And that's what gives me a sense of self, this looking glass self. And our sense of self-esteem, in fact, is highly tied. Am I a valuable person? Is highly tied to how well we're getting along with other people. Psychologists believe that it is a monitor, in fact, for how well you're getting along with people, your very sense of self-worth. And so when there is nobody out there, I think you're absolutely right, that you can lose your sense of who you are. And people who go out to the woods, I remember when I was a kid, I actually wrote this up. I won an early career award from APA, which is a great honor for me, but in the bio that they ask you to write, I wrote in that about my childhood dream. Before I was nine years old, I believed I was going to be a mountain man. I grew up in the woods in Iowa, hunting and fishing, being outdoors. All my extended family were farmers. Watching Grizzly Adams on TV. I thought that was a legit job. Like I could actually go do this, right? And I was about nine years old when, I don't remember quite how this happened, but I learned that this was not a real job. Like this was not a legit thing that I could do, right? But yes, I had romanticized it as well, that this was going to be a wonderful thing to be able to do. But when people actually go out and do that, they mostly go insane.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is very, well

Andrew Huberman:
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great. It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. And of course, we should all eat high-quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled. I get asked all the time by people if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be? And my answer is always AG1, because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational bases. And I know from my own experience, and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to, that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week's supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription. AGZ is something that I helped design. It tastes great, and it's the only sleep supplement I take. It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep, and I absolutely love it. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3+K2 with your subscription. Social media, which I spend a decent amount of time on because I teach there and I learn there, we know has healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
A bunch of variables there, age, what people are looking at, et cetera, how much time they're spending on it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
What they're doing on it, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, but social media offered people this opportunity to get out of aloneness through a different form of connection. And so if we just kind of hypothesize that having our words or our thoughts have a visible, a known impact on somebody else's words or thoughts, provide some sort of confirmation that we're there. It-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... kind of explains why-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm. Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... taking the most aggressive or outrageous thought and putting a comment, and then somebody responds, or other people dog pile, or they respond.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And then you're like, "I'm having an effect out there," also safely behind a wall, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
There's no... I think we're critical of that safely behind a wall piece, the stereotype that you hear online. It's like Apple7689 in his mom's basement trolling people. But then we forget, that person's alone in their basement. Why are they doing it?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Why is it so satisfying to them?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't actually believe that most of these people are evil. Some of them might be, but probably they want to see their words and thoughts have an effect.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Have some impact.

Andrew Huberman:
And the best way to do that is to poke or to say something outrageous.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And so I'm hoping that whoever runs these platforms will try to create incentives for more positive interactions, because I think ultimately what most people want is the interaction, to feel that their thoughts and their feelings matter out there.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So if we can go to something even a little more concrete, if we just think about conversation, right, the back and forth. Why is it that conversation is often such a pleasant thing? It is because there is back-and-forth responsiveness in the conversation that allows me to detect that you're paying attention to me. Right now you're looking at me, right? And you're nodding at me as I'm speaking, and you'll give a "Mm-hmm," or a "Right," or a "Yeah," as I'm going along, and that allows me to recognize my thoughts are having an effect on you in a way that's having a positive effect in return on me. And so I think very much that action at a distance, as you put it, psychologists talk about that as responsiveness or being in synchrony with another person, is part of what makes conversation feel so good.

Andrew Huberman:
I have some friends who are recording artists, and the only reason they still tour-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... it's not for the money. Believe that the money's, in some cases, is good, but it's not as good as money they can make doing other things. It's a huge hassle.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Takes them away from families. There's security issues. There's all this stuff. But they get to experience the apex of collective human action at a distance based on their-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Their doing

Andrew Huberman:
... their inflections, their-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... things. You mentioned Eddie Vedder, right? And then there are stories or whatever, at some concert, right, he scaled up and the microphone got stuck up above.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah .

Andrew Huberman:
And then he actually... I actually watched it. It was pretty dangerous. And then he actually rappelled down on the microphone wire.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, my goodness.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. This was all spontaneous. So he's doing these things. I don't know how much he's conscious of the fact that he's exciting people and... But recording artists love to do this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They don't just love to sing.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They love to see the response of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... the people they sing to.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And people go to concerts-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right

Andrew Huberman:
... I believe, because whether they understand it or not, they're having an impact on what's happening up on stage.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And are in synchrony with each other.

Andrew Huberman:
That they understand that reciprocity.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So I think we're just driven to do this. I have to believe that this is part of our core wiring. When we're kids and we round up in preschool, like when they, "All right, everyone round up," and everyone tries to sit still, and the girls generally can, and the boys generally can't-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... for a little at least until a later age. There's a lot of learning to let others speak, to kind of hold things in.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So as a human psychologist, if you were to play primatologist for a moment-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and we're human-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... old world primates-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... what are the sort of core components that social connection are built on? We talked about dialogue. We talked about vision. We talked about sharing. But we don't get a whole lot of training in this, if you really think about it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
No.

Andrew Huberman:
We just kind of go through school. We learn to sit.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
We learn to listen.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
You're not supposed to hit people.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
You're not supposed to yell at people.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
You run around at recess-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and so on, and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... you do what other people do.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
What is the socialization in human primates? What are the core features that make somebody able to function really well socially or not?

Dr. Nick Epley:
I think the thing to keep in mind, at least, is the reason why we think social connection matters so much, why it's so important, is that it allows us to coordinate with other people.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And if I can coordinate with you, then you and I are better able to survive and to exist and pass along our genes than if we can't coordinate with each other. And that groups that are able to coordinate with each other, collectively cooperate with each other in ways that are good for the common good, those groups outperform groups where people are just at each other's throat and nobody's cooperating. Right? This is why corporations function effectively. You get a collection of individuals all operating as a single unit, all oriented towards one common goal, and you can get a collection of people, of individuals then doing things that are way more advanced and way bigger than any individual would do on their own. This is why the East Indian Trading Company was able to send ships all around the world, because they had resources tied up in corporations so that they could send ships out into the world, and if one went down, you wouldn't lose all of your resources, you wouldn't lose all your riches as an investor. So all of social connection, at least evolutionarily speaking, this is the idea, is pushing us toward cooperation and coordination, particularly with non-kin. That's what makes us truly social on this planet, is our ability to cooperate and to care for non-kin. You don't need coordination with family members. You don't need any special evolutionary mechanism to get coordination with family members.

Andrew Huberman:
It's hardwired.

Dr. Nick Epley:
They have your genes. So that makes perfect sense, you're leaving genetic offspring. But you need something else to explain why I'm so friendly with you and why we coordinate so well out there in the world. We drive on the right side of the road, we befriend people who we're not related to, and that's where I think all of this-- That's what social connection is ultimately trying to serve, is that coordination function.

Andrew Huberman:
Do you think there are hardwired mechanisms that set us up for cooperation with our genetic offspring and siblings and so forth, more so-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... than with non-genetic. I know you have adopted kids. We have adopted kids in our family-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... as well, and it's sort of weird to say this because it's kind of a duh, but for people that don't have adopted family members, the notion that they're not really part of your family is insane.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
For privacy reasons, I don't want to disclose who these people are, but I can tell you that I have a younger family member who was adopted, and I never, ever, ever think for a moment that she's not part of our family.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right. Of course.

Andrew Huberman:
I'd lay down in traffic for her-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, of course

Andrew Huberman:
... the same way I would for-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Of course you would

Andrew Huberman:
... any other member of my family.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Of course you would.

Andrew Huberman:
And I wasn't the one that raised her. Do you think there's something hardwired about our genetic offspring, and the other stuff fortunately develops?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Adopted children, close friends-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... community members.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. I don't know the answer to that exactly. That's not what I study, per se. What I can tell you, though, as a social psychologist, is that what we study is the power of context and roles to drive behavior, and the thing that you are speaking to, and the thing that we have experienced as parents, we have three adopted children, what really matters is the role you play. Right? And that is magical. When we adopted our first two children from Ethiopia, we made a decision to do this. And when you adopt, there's a point where you move from this being hypothetical to being this being real. Okay? And the way this worked for us was that we were shown pictures of these children who we could adopt, and of course, once you're in on it, you're all in. You're not really making a choice. "Hmm, I'm not sure." We called up the agency, we said we were ready to go, and they said, "How about these?" And they put a picture up for us. And when we first making this decision, it was hypothetical, and the pictures looked different to us. Our kids have come from very, very hard places in life. You don't end up in an orphanage in another part of the world unless you've come through hard places. They had come through very hard places. They were in the second and third percentile on the WHO heightened weight charts. They were in tough shape. As soon as Jen and I said, "Yeah, we can do this," I so vividly remember this, they just looked better. You just felt more love. They looked different-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... the second we decided, "Yes, this is it. Here we go. We have committed."

Andrew Huberman:
Hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And then once you bring people into your family, anybody who's done this knows the huge effect is your dad or your mom, and that's what matters. We will sometimes, I don't know if your family has done this, but I will sometimes very gently note to people, they will sometimes talk to me as another father of my kids and not my kids, right, as if the biological and adopted children are different. And I very try to gently say, "They are all our children, and you don't feel different." So I think what's interesting, not as if is there any subtle difference that's left, is how almost completely imperceptible or completely imperceptible it actually is. That's what makes us remarkable as human beings, that we can do that. There is no other species we know of that does that kind of thing, that loves beyond their kin in the way that we can. In fact, it's led to a total reshaping in many ways of the field of economics even. Economists believe that humans are fundamentally self-interested. They only care about themselves. The only rub is when you actually look at the data People are just a lot nicer to each other than standard models of economics would predict. We give money away to charity. We give away kidneys to random strangers. We care. Like if I give you $10 in an experiment and tell you you can divide it with another person however you want, you can keep all of it, give none of it, or give it all away, the standard prediction from economic theory is you'll be purely self-interested. You won't care anything about this person you know nothing about. You'll give them nothing. That's not what real people do. They give something, 30%, 50%, typically depending on the context that you're in, and that's the thing that I think is remarkable in this particular case. Not is there any bit left of this biological hardwiring, but how much of it is about the role that you play and how much our love for another, our ability to connect with another person is a function of the role that we play in their lives.

Andrew Huberman:
Incredible example, that the moment you and your wife made the decision that these were the children you were going to adopt, that your visual perception of them changed.

Dr. Nick Epley:
They looked different.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. It's almost like two circuits merged in that moment, and I can attest from a parallel experience, although I'm not the parent of this family member, that it's an instant and you never go back.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is. No.

Andrew Huberman:
There's never a reconsideration.

Dr. Nick Epley:
No.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think some people assume that-

Dr. Nick Epley:
No

Andrew Huberman:
... well, in especially hard times, it kind of just leaves the room. The question of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
It leaves the room. It's immaterial

Andrew Huberman:
... it's a fascinating and reassuring aspect of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Exactly

Andrew Huberman:
... our brain wiring.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Other people might imagine that you think this. It just doesn't. You're just a parent. That's it.

Andrew Huberman:
Wild, and very cool.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is very cool, and I think an underappreciated aspect of our sociality is how much we... And we often take it for granted. People are mean to each other and so on. Yeah, people can be mean to each other, but we also love each other way beyond what we should in some way based on just pure kinship relationships and biological offspring would predict we would, and that's because we're highly social. We got to cooperate with each other in order to get along successfully in life. And so we've got these really hardwired kind of circuitry to care and love and connect with each other when we try.

Andrew Huberman:
What I'm about to describe might be different now-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... but a good portion of my family's in South America, and I'll never forget when I was in my probably late teens, early 20s, I went down there, and I went out with my cousins to a bar. It was like a club, right? And it was so interesting because they spoke to their friends. We met up with their friends there. People danced, people drank, did all the things that we were also doing back in-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... California. But there was no communication with other people at this club or this bar that they didn't already know.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh.

Andrew Huberman:
This may have changed.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Huh.

Andrew Huberman:
But then and there, the culture was one where you go out with the people you already know, and you have a really good time, but people weren't exchanging numbers, hitting on people, looking at other people across. There were these little pockets-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Nice. Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... across the room, so it wasn't this idea that, oh, when you go out in public, you go to a club, or you drink or something, you might meet somebody else.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Interesting.

Andrew Huberman:
There wasn't a fear of other people. That wasn't the reason you go out.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
You go out to see your friends.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And the interesting thing also was that many of these friendships had been lifelong friendships.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So in some sense, I wonder, is this one version of how humans evolved? Because we always think about this village-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm, yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of 100 people. Bob Sapolsky talks about this, and we evolved in these culture of 100 or 200 folks, and you knew everyone, and everyone's in each other's business, and that's how our species evolved. At the same time, we have different examples of sociality.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And that strangers weren't around as much-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Dr. Nick Epley:
... was the idea.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. It's hard to say. I don't know. Certainly today, if you look around the world, there is and always has been some anxiety about connecting with strangers, and it can vary depending on where. There's some places where there's more sociability than in others. But there's always been some anxiety about the other, the one you don't know, right? Because you don't know necessarily if I can trust you or not at this moment, whether that comes from our evolutionary heritage or not, or just unfamiliar with anything, right? So, if you give me something to drink here and I don't know what's in it, I'm going to be a little nervous, and I want to find out before I drink it. And if I trust you, I'll drink it, but if I don't, I'm not so sure. I'm going to want to see what's in there first. There's always some anxiety about the unknown or uncertainty, and it could be a lot of stuff about strangers, a reluctance to connect with other people, a desire to keep with the folks we already know come simply from that, right? Which also would apply to non-human interactions, too, or non-human objects as well. We just like what's familiar because we know it, and we trust it, and we're comfortable with it as a result. Everything else, by comparison, is a little bit riskier.

Andrew Huberman:
I can't say I'm particularly outgoing or not, but I was taught manners that had me ask how people's day was going.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
Like if I'm checking out at the grocery store-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... it's like, "How's your day going?"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And I'm interested.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
It's not just an icebreaker of some, like, "How's your day going?"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
You hold the door for people. You say please and thank you.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
I think a lot of people assume that manners equates to small talk equates to superficial-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... and that it's all a bunch of fluff-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... that it's not about deep connection.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
But when I'm moving through the checkout line at Whole Foods, I don't have a lot of options.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
If I say nothing, okay, these days, no one would-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... notice.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
They could be on their phone. No one would call that abnormal. If I say, "How's your day going?" And they go, "Pretty good." If I say, "What'd you do before you got here?" That's getting a little bit further down the line, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
If I say, "What's the hardest thing that ever happened to you?" They're going to look at me like I'm crazy, right? So, what I wonder is When we talk about manners and etiquette-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right

Andrew Huberman:
... which I believe there's been a real kind of erosion of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... at the level of what is standard, for whatever reason. We just don't have an etiquette everyone follows. It used to be all men wore jackets and ties-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... or at least ties to work.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Now you show up in whatever, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I do think that as manners have become less common, or common manners have become less common, that the opportunities for casual low-level exchange have evaporated.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And so there's less of a stepping stone to deeper exchange.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. So I would think about manners kind of as habits, right? That's kind of what they are. And some sensibilities about other people, being kind and decent to other people. But understanding how those manners might be affecting day-to-day behavior is a little bit tricky. So one of the things, for instance, we find in a lot of public spaces, people are reluctant to engage with other people because they don't want to interrupt. They don't want to be impolite.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
There's a version of that, that is about manners, right? And sometimes we're getting signals of that. Tech gives us signals that somebody doesn't want to be bothered, perhaps. Like we put earbuds in or we look at our phone, right? And so some of that could be coming from what you might think of as manners. In the UK, for instance, one of the reasons we find, well, this is true in the US too, but even a little more so in the UK, there's this norm of politeness, that it's not okay for me to get into your business. In Japan, it's even stronger, right? I don't want to... And that's seen as being polite.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right? In those contexts. I am with you, though, that this general norm of saying hello or hi to people has gotten diminished a little bit, in part because people, I think, are getting out of the habit because you've got these phones on you all the time. But I think it's a little trickier. It's a little harder to say maybe that manners have eroded because they're complicated out in the world. Stuff that looks like could be a lack of manners in one context could, in people's own minds, be, "No, I'm being polite to you by not interrupting." It's tricky.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, I hear from a lot of podcast listeners that the challenges with finding a romantic partner nowadays center largely around people not wanting to be seen as creepy-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but also people not wanting strangers to talk to them.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right. It's impossible.

Andrew Huberman:
We're at a little bit of an impasse right now.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, it's impossible.

Andrew Huberman:
I also hear from people who wonder why guys aren't asking them out just kind of randomly or asking them for a coffee-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... or for a number or something like that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I think there's a lot of fear right now, is what I hear.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And that fear is probably... Well, it certainly is on both sides.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
You said you had an in-depth conversation with your Uber driver-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Amazing

Andrew Huberman:
... on the way over here.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Amazing.

Andrew Huberman:
It used to be that I would get into deep conversations on airplanes.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
It just seems like we're stuck in this-

Dr. Nick Epley:
I did last night coming-

Andrew Huberman:
You know? Did you?

Dr. Nick Epley:
I did last night coming out to talk to you.

Andrew Huberman:
The only downside being sometimes, if your neck is turned to one side-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... you can get off that plane with a-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... with a stiff neck.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But in all seriousness, so are you one to just open up conversation with people at random?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah?

Dr. Nick Epley:
In part because we could go back a long way to start, but I'll start at the beginning of our research-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... but I'll keep this simple.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I've interpreted reaching out and connecting with other people differently. We find in our work that people underestimate how interested others are in engaging with them. So you're sitting next to somebody on a plane or on a train, and people, if you're not already talking, you assume this person doesn't want to talk to you. But that person is more likely to say they're interested in talking to you than you would guess.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
But if you've got two people that aren't talking to each other, this gets back to our earlier conversation, how I can use somebody's behavior as a guide to their thoughts. In this case, making a mistake, I can infer you're not interested in talking to me if you're not, and you could be thinking, "Well, Nick's not talking to me. He's not interested in it either." We can both then sit there, both be interested in talking to each other, but nobody's saying a word because we misunderstand what silence is like. Right? Or we assume that people don't want to have meaningful conversations, when in fact, most people say that's actually what they want. So I've adopted a different way to think about manners here in a way that I think attends more to both my own well-being and the person who I'm connecting with. I think about social connection as an opportunity or an invitation to connect with somebody. And to your point about fear, we find over and over again, people are overly pessimistic, overly afraid about how positively other people will respond to them when you reach out to them in a positive way. So, like with the Uber driver on the way here today, he was Iranian. I asked him, "How do you feel about the war? Can you tell me about it?" And it was clear that I was not wanting some superficial response. I cared. I was taking an interest in him, and he recognized I was taking an interest in him. And he responded by taking an interest then in me and feeling comfortable sharing. And he shared that his son died in a protest in Iran, and that he had been imprisoned in Iran. And we were crying, but together at the end of that ride. It was 23 minutes to get here.

Andrew Huberman:
The fact that you're able to connect for a short while. I'm assuming you didn't exchange numbers. You're not going to be in touch.

Dr. Nick Epley:
We didn't, no.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. So the point is not to create a lasting relationship.

Dr. Nick Epley:
No.

Andrew Huberman:
The point is to connect.

Dr. Nick Epley:
To make that moment better. Yeah. And I think actually this is a really important way to rethink how you think about well-being. Well-being is not just about the intense, the really impactful moments in your life. Happiness and well-being is a little more like a leaky tire. You just got to keep pumping it up because you adapt to things, right? You go on this amazing trip out into the beautiful Sonoran Desert or something, right? And that's great, and you come back the next day, and then you got traffic coming to work, and that sucks, right? You're right back to where you were before. It doesn't last. Nothing really lasts for that long. Well, obviously relationships can last, but moments come and go, right? And what that means, I think, for our well-being, is that we want to start paying attention to creating good moments, right? Positive moments that can lift us up and the people around us as well. And I could have gone 23 minutes here, to talk with you today and had a perfectly boring ride, or I could have heard one of the most amazing stories about somebody's life where he opens his heart up to me in this car ride in 23 minutes and made that 23 minutes way better and connect with another human being-

Speaker 3:
More deeply than you might imagine would be possible in that short time, and make that moment better. My day is better because that moment was better. And if you start thinking about happiness and connection in terms of moments rather than some sort of illusion of some lasting long-term impact, well, then you start seeing opportunities to connect all over the place, right? On my plane flight in last night, did that, right? In the grocery store checkout line, you got an opportunity. I now keep an eye out. I just pay attention. I take an interest in other people. The research that I've done here on social connection has fundamentally changed the way that I live my life. I take an interest in other people, so I notice stuff that I didn't use to notice. I'll throw out compliments. Any kind thought, I will share with somebody. I just don't have anxiety about that. Keep moving on. If from passing, I'll shout out... Like this morning, I got breakfast at the hotel I was at. Guy's wearing a killer hat. And I'm walking by. "Hey, man. I love your hat. That's awesome." And I walk by and he says, "I love it, too." Right? And I just kept going. But that moment was a little brighter, right? And what's a good day if not to string along a few good moments? And what's a good week if not to string along a few days that have some good moments in them? And what's a good month, a good year-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm

Speaker 3:
... a good life? It's about those moments. And we got lots of those moments, and if we start thinking about them in terms of opportunities to connect, to be decent to another person in a way that'll really use the skill we have to connect with other people instead of being held back by misplaced fear, changes the way you live your life.

Andrew Huberman:
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Speaker 3:
Yeah. I'm listening to you and I'm thinking some of the best moments of my life, and I've had many, many, are really at this kind of level of in passing.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Speaker 3:
You mentioned, in my mind I was saying, never underestimate the good feeling that comes from a good fist bump with someone that you exchange no words with.

Andrew Huberman:
You bet.

Speaker 3:
And I live in a very crowded area, and so I don't go out much, but when I do, occasionally you just pass someone on the sidewalk and you just put out a fist and you feel a kinship.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Speaker 3:
The other day also, I have a very niche but a very deep relationship to a certain genre of music, so just walking down the boardwalk and someone shouted out... I was wearing a Minor Threat shirt. I'm a big Ian MacKaye fan, Minor Threat, Fugazi. And someone goes, "Minor Threat!" And I go, "Minor Threat!" I don't even know where they were. And I'm dating myself here by saying that, but still an amazing band, right? No matter how old you are, check it out. But you feel a kinship to other members of your species-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Speaker 3:
... that way. I don't know who these people are.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Speaker 3:
It's interesting. It's a whole other level of human connection that I hadn't thought of, and as with manners and etiquette and that kind of superficial small talk piece, I kind of assumed that this stuff didn't matter. That it was-

Andrew Huberman:
Right

Speaker 3:
... kind of like, ah, well, okay-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Speaker 3:
... that's like-

Andrew Huberman:
Small

Speaker 3:
... that's not nourishment.

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Speaker 3:
That's not a nice elk steak.

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Speaker 3:
Or a beautiful-

Andrew Huberman:
Right

Speaker 3:
... vegetable spread.

Andrew Huberman:
Right.

Speaker 3:
That's like a cracker.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Speaker 3:
But the comparison isn't fair-

Andrew Huberman:
Right

Speaker 3:
... because ultimately, like you said, our life is a series of moments.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Speaker 3:
And the feeling that our species has a kinship that isn't based on anything else.

Andrew Huberman:
Yes.

Speaker 3:
There was no exchange of-

Andrew Huberman:
Right

Speaker 3:
... money or opportunities-

Andrew Huberman:
Right

Speaker 3:
... or any of that, is pretty awesome.

Andrew Huberman:
Some sense that we're connected.

Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's pretty awesome.

Andrew Huberman:
We're in this together in some way.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. There's a hypothesis that many of my PhD students and postdocs over the years have suggested and that we've talked about, but we have never figured out a way to actually test it. But some sense that when you interact with a stranger, a member of a group of some kind, but a stranger's a good example. It doesn't just make you feel connected to that person, it kind of changes your sense of connection to the entire group. You just feel a little better about humanity when you see that moment. You deliver a compliment to somebody. I was walking down the sidewalk just a little bit ago on my way to the train, and there was a woman standing next to a car, and she just had these awesome red glasses on. They just looked fabulous. And I said to her as I were going by, "I love those glasses. You are killing it today." And she took them off

Dr. Nick Epley:
Almost, she wasn't going to cry, but she stopped, and she said, "Thank you so much for telling me that. I really needed that today."

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right? I had met her in a moment where she had a bad day. And my sense is she just felt uplifted just by people in general-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... by the world. Just had a more favorable-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... view of what the world was like, a different view of what human nature was like-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... in that moment-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... than she otherwise would've had. Yesterday, on my train ride into University of Chicago before I got on a flight to come here to see you, sit down next to a young man on the train. He's got his earbuds in, looking at his phone, easy stereotype, young man disconnected from the world. I sit down, and I sat right next to him, I said, "Hi." I reached out, "I'm Nick." To shake his hand. He came back with a fist bump rather than a handshake. But then he took out his right earbud, and I started talking to him. I said, "What are you up to today? What are you going into town for?" And he said, "Well, I'm going to this culinary program downtown." And what was so crystal clear right away was how proud he was that he was doing this. He'd come from LA, actually. And he was just getting into this training program, this trade school, to get him into this culinary union where he was going to work as a chef maybe for a hotel or a big restaurant. He pulled out his book, his little three-ring binder that had his lessons for it. I actually took a picture of it. I have a son who's entering a trade program right now. I've never seen him happier in his life than when he's doing this. And he was flipping through, showing me what they were doing today. He was just so proud of what he was doing, so ready to talk with me about this. His name was Gustavo. Delightful young man. And I remember leaving that conversation just feeling better about my kids, and just about kids in general. Like, here is a kid who's really trying to make it, and that felt good. Not just about this young man, Gustavo, who I felt fortunate to spend 30 minutes that made that 30 minutes much better, but kind of uplifting about the entire category that he was from. And what's interesting is how easy it is, to your point about manners, say, to avoid that out of fear. He doesn't want to talk to me. He's not that interested in having a meaningful conversation with me. He doesn't want to go there, right? But in fact, that's the thing we're all dying for.

Andrew Huberman:
It's super interesting. I'd never thought about this aspect of social dynamics. Yes, manners. Both my parents are very polite. They taught us to be polite. My girlfriend comes from the South, so she's very polite. Manners are-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... like a big thing.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And she's a genuinely kind person. That's why I think people hear manners and kindness, and they think, oh, it's fake. But it's not.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
It's a real, it's part of the social fabric.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? Not that I'm the data point that matters, but I assure anyone who aspires to be a public-facing person, the thing you give up when you're a public-facing person is this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, really?

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. It's interesting. And for somebody like me, it's compensated for by the other things you gain, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But that disappears, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
Not with everyone, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
But it disappears. And so as you're saying this, I actually realized I have a little bit of nostalgia about just being able to go out and interact with people. And sometimes it happens, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... a lot of times, things revert back to-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... to the podcast or things like-

Dr. Nick Epley:
They know you. Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... which I really love.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I love it when people roll up and have questions, and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... everyone knows me that I'll give a podcast right there. If someone has a question, I'm going to give an answer.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Sit down for two hours, please.

Andrew Huberman:
Well, I always say, I'm genuinely interested in them. And I'll be like, "Where are you from? What's your name?" I'm genuinely interested. I'm not asking it to deflect. I'm really interested. But the anonymous, brief exchange that reinforces our and their understanding. It's not like a belief. It's like an understanding. It's a feeling-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... that we're part of the same species.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
That is an incredibly powerful and reinforcing thing, I think. Especially for me, I'm very affiliative. I can imagine, and I'll just table this possibility, that there are some people who are not as affiliative.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I know one or two people whose names I won't mention, who don't really... It's not that they dislike people, but unless it's their family, they're not really interested in other people.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They're just not. And I can't say that they're unhappy.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They like their family, they like their books, they like their movies.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And we could say that they would be better off if they were different, but they don't seem to really like other people. They don't-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... dislike them.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But they've got their people, and then there's everyone else.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And the idea that they would interact with these other people, except in professional-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... circumstances, I think to them is kind of foreign. But I'm making a lot of assumptions here, too.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. So you can find situations where everybody seems to act that way.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right? Like on my train coming into Chicago every morning, where nobody's talking with each other. It looks like nobody cares about other people. They don't have any interest in talking to other people. In those kinds of situations, when you ask people to connect with somebody else, everybody kind of gets lifted up.

Andrew Huberman:
Hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
If you look across, say, introversion and extroversion, a common hypothesis is that extroverts get their energy and their enjoyment from connecting with other people, whereas folks who are more introverted get their energy and enjoyment from keeping to themselves, right? That's what they want. The data just don't support that.

Andrew Huberman:
Hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So this we've known for a long time. So extroversion is correlated with wellbeing, with happiness. Going back to 1980, one of the very first studies that ever tested is personality related to wellbeing, an easy hypothesis is no, it's not. It can't be. Because, right, people get what they want out of their lives, right? And everybody's equally happy because extroverts connect with other people. They reach out, they care about other people. Introverts don't care as much about other people, or they have other preferences to keep to themselves or have deeper, meaningful conversations, right? But everybody's getting what they want. So theoretically, there should be no correlation at all between personality and wellbeing. And that just isn't true. Correlation between happiness, positive affect day to day, and extroversion is .5 That's huge. That is big. That's like the correlation between the heights of fathers and sons. That is a big correlation. Right? It's a little weaker with things like satisfaction with life, it's a little more like .3, but that correlation is big, and it shows up around the world. Right? In 1996, Ed Diener, one of the founding figures in the science of happiness or well-being, stated, "The foundational result in personality science is that extroversion is correlated with well-being or happiness." The more outgoing and extroverted you are, the more you connect with others, the happier you are. Lots of reasons why that could be. There's a third variable. Maybe extroverts are just happier than introverts to begin with, say. But it raises question, maybe it's something about the choices they're making, the habits they're developing, how they're actually behaving, and so that makes a easy prediction that, well, what happens if we just ask people to reach out and connect more with other people, to act a little more extroverted? Does it affect their well-being? Could this be like a well-being intervention? And it turns out it is. Will Fleeson, a psychologist at Wake Forest University, was one of the very first people to do this. Half-hour lab study, asked people to act more extroverted or more introverted. When people acted more extroverted, they reported feeling more positive in that experiment. When you asked people to act more introverted, they felt less positive, regardless of where they fell on this personality scale to begin with. Over the course of a person's day, extroverts and introverts report feeling better alike when they're spending time with other people than when they're alone. You ask both to spend more time connecting with other people, being extroverted over the course of a day, a week, or more. Sonja Lyubomirsky, a psychology professor at UC Riverside, has done some of the best research on this. Over the course of two weeks, you shift the positive affect meter up across the entire extroversion scale when people are connecting with others compared to when they're acting introverted. I think what differs here between the folks you're describing who don't seem to get along well with others or like other people, or don't seem to care as much about other people, and folks who do, are the habits that they have developed. A little like exercise, I think, is the way to think about it.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Some of us choose to exercise a lot.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
You choose to exercise a lot, clearly.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I don't like I-

Andrew Huberman:
But you're a former athlete.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I'm a former athlete.

Andrew Huberman:
You played football and you wrestled, competitively.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Basketball.

Andrew Huberman:
Basketball, sorry.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I played basketball and football. Yeah. No, I avoided wrestling because-

Andrew Huberman:
Oh, okay

Dr. Nick Epley:
... I wanted my ears to keep looking good.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, yeah. Your ears look good.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, but I struggle to find the time for it, so I don't choose to exercise as much as I should now, right? But we all would feel better if we exercised a little more, regardless of what our habits are. So what the data on this suggests is that, yeah, if people open themselves up a little bit more to other people, try to reach out and connect in positive ways with other people. The porcupines in our lives are not making themselves happier by keeping their quills out and keeping to themselves. They're not living quite as good a life as they could live if they chose to live a little differently. Now whether they choose to or not, right, whether you exercise or not is not like a necessarily a moral virtue. Somebody doesn't exercise, you can't say, "You have to exercise." But if you wanted to lift your life up a little bit, reach out and engage a little more often is what the data suggests, regardless of where you are on that spectrum.

Andrew Huberman:
I realize it's not your specific area of work, but what about for people with social anxiety?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
My first impulse is to say, as long as you have the resources and the time, get a dog I'm not a big fan of dog parks-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... for all sorts of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... health reasons and, but when I lived in San Diego, I would take my bulldog mastiff puppy to the dog park. I made lots of friends. He made friends.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, for sure.

Andrew Huberman:
And a dog is better than bumming a cigarette, which nobody does anymore, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Met tons of people that way.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So what's interesting about that is that creates an excuse to have a conversation.

Andrew Huberman:
Right. Well, I'm not suggesting anyone do this, but in the old days, you would ask for a cigarette, and you would then smoke side-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Whether you needed it or not. But yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Then you would smoke side by side with somebody, and you'd talk.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And sometimes there was a romantic interest, sometimes it was just a friendly interest, but you shared a brief experience.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes. Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
You got some nicotine in your system-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... which no doubt helped it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And they gave something to you, right?

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So they share resources with you-

Andrew Huberman:
There was a trust piece

Dr. Nick Epley:
... and so there's trust that's being-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, that was a very common-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... mode of exchange-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... until about, people really stopped doing that kind of in the-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... mid-'90s-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... is when smoking really dropped off.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So what's interesting about that, I think those tokens, the dog or the cigarette, are serving to work our way around our anxiety a little bit-

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm

Dr. Nick Epley:
... that we have about connecting with other people. I don't think they're necessary. Right? They're not necessary, but they do help to get around that anxiety. But to people who have social anxiety, it's a painful thing, of course, and it's hard. We all have it to some extent, are nervous about reaching out and engaging with other people in varying degrees. Some of that just being a function of how often we do it. When I was in graduate school, for instance, I was terrified of public speaking. Before my first job interview, which is my fourth year of graduate school at Princeton, I got super lucky to get this job interview. I was terrified.

Andrew Huberman:
Hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I was terrified. My job-

Andrew Huberman:
Because you seem so facile with it now.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Now I am.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Now I am, right? This is 25 years of practice and experience and exposure. And if you have social anxiety disorder, and you want to take care of it, this is something psychologists, clinicians can really take care of. There are lots of things that as psychologists we can't really deal with behaviorally. Social anxiety is something we really can help people with. For this book, "A Little More Social" that I just wrote, I had a conversation with the guy who is responsible for really developing exposure therapy to treat anxiety disorders. Stefan Hofmann is his name. And essentially, the strategy is very simple. If you are afraid of talking with a stranger or having a deep conversation, the way to get over that is not to simulate it or to imagine it. It's not like you get up and you give a pretend speech. That's what psychologists were doing for years. It doesn't work because it's still pretending. You're not a real audience. It has to be real. And that was Stefan Hofmann's real innovation, is you send people out in the world and to do the thing for real You're worried about getting rejected. Go out and start asking people for help, and you'll learn that your fear is misplaced, that you get accepted more often than you might guess. Exposing people to that thing that they're anxious of. When the belief is misplaced, and with social anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced. That's what we find over and over again, is a mistaken barrier to connecting with other people. That's how you ease that social anxiety and get rid of it. Now, exposure therapy doesn't work for everything. If you're afraid of bullets, you're afraid of getting shot by bullets. Repeated exposure to being shot by bullets is not going to make you less afraid of that. That's going to be one trial learning, and that's going to be the end of it. But when your fears are misplaced, like it is with social stuff, exposure is what takes care of it. Not because you dull your anxiety so much. It's because you change your beliefs about what other people are like. You learn, oh, wait, other people are nicer than I think. When I say hi to somebody, they tend to say hi back. When I take an interest in somebody, they tend to take an interest in me. When I ask somebody for a cigarette, and they have one, they tend to give me one when I ask for it, and it makes this nice conversation. Changes your beliefs. That's why exposure therapy works.

Andrew Huberman:
That's really interesting and a bit surprising. I completely believe it as you say it, but that exposure therapy doesn't reduce your anxiety, per se. It changes your beliefs about how other people are going to react.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Which indirectly-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... feeds back-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and changes how you feel.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Let me give you a story about somebody who I got connected to a little bit while I was writing this book. Jia Jiang is his name. And Jia lives up in the Bay Area, well, at least he did at the time. I think that's still where he is. He was an aspiring entrepreneur. You can find him at rejectiontherapy.com, which is his website where he put this together. He's got all these videos. They're amazing. He decided he was an aspiring entrepreneur, but he was afraid of rejection. And he decided he was going to cure himself of this fear of rejection by subjecting himself to exposure therapy. And he'd heard of this, that you do this for a month, the Stefan Hoffman work. He's going to try to make some outlandish request every day for a month and get rejected every day. But because his anxiety was so bad, he needed more than a month. He needed 100 days. So he was 100 days in a row, he was going to ask somebody some ludicrous request so that he would get rejected, and then he was going to develop thick skin. He was going to become immune to rejection. He was going to toughen himself up. He was going to desensitize himself. First day, he goes up to a security guard, and he videotapes all these. So you can find these online. They're beautiful. He goes up to somebody at a bank, like a security guard outside of a bank, and he asks him, "Can I borrow $100 from you?" And the security guard says "That's not how this works, buddy." And so Jia walks away, "Ah, success. I got rejected." But then he says, "But it actually wasn't that bad." He thought the rejection was going to be harsh. Middle fingers blazing, swear words coming, somebody punch him in the face, whatever. He thought it was going to be harsh. It wasn't that bad. By the third day, he starts to fail. He goes into a Krispy Kreme donut store in Atlanta, goes up to the desk. A woman named Jackie Braun is kind of managing the shift there that day. She comes up, and he comes to the counter, and he says, "Can I get Krispy Kreme donuts in the shape of the Olympic rings?" Shape and color of the Olympic rings. And he's thinking, oh, they're going to say, "Uh, we don't do that here." And instead, Jackie sits down, gets in her thinker pose, and starts drawing on a piece of paper what the Olympic rings are. What colors are they? We don't know. They're trying to figure this out. Says, "Just wait a minute." Jia goes and sits down. 15 minutes later, she comes out with a box of donuts, a little sheepishly because she thought she could've done better. And there are these Olympic rings that are amazing. The voiceover on his video is something to the effect of, "And this is why humanity is worth saving." Over the course of his 100 days, he doubles up a few days. He ends up with, like, 106 requests. We, Don Lyons, who was my lab manager at the time, went through and evaluated all of those requests that he posted, and we just asked, how often was he actually rejected? Walks up to a house in Texas and asked the guy at the house, "Would you take a picture of me playing soccer in your backyard?" Yeah. Yes is the answer. There he is playing soccer. He walks up to a Southwest Airlines gate. He's getting on a plane. He says, "Can I do the security briefing at the beginning?" They says, "Well, you can't do that, but you can address the entire plane if you want." So there he is standing in front of the entire plane addressing this plane. He goes to another airport, a private airport, never flown a plane in his life. He asked, "Can I co-pilot a plane? Can I do that?" Yeah, he does. He gets it done. Walks up to a woman's house. He's got a potted rose, pink rose. "Can I plant this in your front yard?" "Oh, I love roses. You bet. Put it right there." He actually is rejected less often than he is accepted. And we coded the videos for how negative they are. Mostly not negative at all. Only about seven out of those 100 times is there any negativity whatsoever, and if anything, it's just slight. Sometimes people can't do it. So he's accepted 51 times, if I remember right, and rejected 48 times. And then there are a few that are ambiguous, where he can't do the thing he asked for, but they do something else. But out of all those, only a few times is there any negativity. And when I was talking to him about this, he said, "I went into this thinking I was going to develop thicker skin. I lost my fear of rejection, but it was because I changed how I think about other people. Other people are way kinder than I expect." And he talked about this now, this belief that he has as being a kind of superpower. Because he realizes that if you ask people for help, they are much more interested in trying to help you than you'd imagine. And that's why exposure to mistaken beliefs like our social anxiety works, because you learn that your beliefs are wrong. But if you never test them, you never find out you'd be wrong.

Andrew Huberman:
How persistent was he? For instance, if he asked a question and the person said, "Mm, listen, you can't come in my backyard and play soccer." But maybe the front yard. Would he say, "Backyard, please?"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
Or if they said no outright-

Dr. Nick Epley:
You know, he wa-

Andrew Huberman:
Would he push?

Dr. Nick Epley:
He wasn't that persistent in these things.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And Jia's experience is very consistent with what we find in the research literature as well. There's a phenomena, Frank Flynn and Vanessa Bohns, Franks is at Stanford, Vanessa is at Cornell, both fabulous researchers, documented this phenomena known as the underestimation of compliance effect, which is you ask people to predict what percentage of people, or how many people will agree to some request, and the very robust tendency is that they overestimate how many people they'll have to ask in order to get some number to agree to a request. People are just much more likely to agree than you think. We find in our research that not only are they more willing to agree to the request, they also feel much better when they agree to help you than you would guess. You ask somebody to take a picture of you down along the boardwalk in LA, right? You think you're pestering somebody, right? You're being a burden to them. They're usually happier to have helped you, because we are happier when we are being kind to other people. So, Jia's result is consistent with all of this work. In his videos, he was not that persistent, but he would often accept other alternatives. So he goes into Costco one time, goes up to the manager, he says, "I love Costco. It's just my favorite store. Can I go on the intercom and tell the entire store how much I love Costco and how fabulous I think you all are?" And the manager says, "Well, I can't let you do that, but we can go get lunch over here at the pizza shop that's in Costco, and we can spend some time talking." And so he comps him a lunch, and he gets a free lunch out of it. That's what he does. So there were a few... And like on the Southwest Airlines thing, he couldn't do the security briefing.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
But he could just address the whole plane flight, which is what he did. Right? So he would accept those, and those were the few cases where it wasn't outright accepted. But if he got a no, he said thank you, and that was it.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't want to give anyone social anxiety- ... because you just provided a wonderful, or I don't want to discourage anyone from doing what you just described, because it's a really both entertaining and beautiful example of the goodness of humanity-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... really being a fundamental feature of most-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Or surprisingly fundamental.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So it's not the case that everybody's always nice to you.

Andrew Huberman:
Sure.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Of course not.

Andrew Huberman:
Sure.

Dr. Nick Epley:
But it tends to go, he thought he'd be rejected-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Dr. Nick Epley:
... 100 days in a row.

Andrew Huberman:
Yep. Yep.

Dr. Nick Epley:
He wasn't.

Andrew Huberman:
You have data. I just have an anecdote.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Okay.

Andrew Huberman:
So the fact that I'm going to tell you that a piece of that anecdote comes from a neurologist does not mean it has any more validity than-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Okay

Andrew Huberman:
... maybe even less.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
That was a joke against my neurology. I have great jokes about neurologists, by the way. I could do an entire podcast about the jokes against the different divisions of medicine. Maybe I'll do that sometime. We should do that, Rob. So I had a postdoc advisor. Unfortunately, he passed, but that's not the point here. He was a neurologist, and he was an extremely friendly person. His name was Ben Barris. He used to walk down the hall. He'd say, "Hi," to the janitors. He'd say-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... he was always very good about bringing things to the admins up front. You and I both know they are underpaid-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... at all universities.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
They are truly... People always say, "Oh, all the administrators." Well, you got high-level administrators-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... I'm not going to comment on what they make. I don't know. But-

Dr. Nick Epley:
A lot

Andrew Huberman:
... but all the administrators at the level of the front office, et cetera, they're underpaid, they're overworked.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
He was just an extremely kind person. He was just very outgoing and... But he was a neurologist in addition to being a scientist, and he pointed something out, which was that there would be some people that he would interact with on campus, and we were adjacent to the hospital, so this plays in, who you'd be friendly to. Like, "Hey, how's it going?" And they'd say, "Hey, what do you do here?" And you'd say, "Oh, well, we work on neuronal-glial interactions, activity-dependent development of myelination." And they go, "Oh, cool." Like, "What's that?" And you'd have a little exchange, then move on.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Great. Healthy.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They're learning. They realize academics-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... aren't just trying to hide their information-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... no matter how busy they are.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Somebody just taking time out of their busy pace to stop and have an interaction with you. This is something that I grew up observing in my mom, and it's something that I just naturally do and enjoy. So it's a lot of what you described before.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
But I'll never forget Ben once telling me, he said, "See this guy coming down the hall? He's sticky." And I said, "What's sticky?" And he said- ... "That's neurologist speak for the person that takes that kind of casual exchange and makes the assumption that you're a lot closer than you actually are."

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And as somebody with a sister, you grow up hearing stories of like, you hear through the wall, like, "Oh, some good-looking guy asked for her number," excited about that. But some other guy, he was pretty persistent-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... and he wouldn't go away.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, right, yes.

Andrew Huberman:
I'm not talking about full stalker situation.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right. No, I understand.

Andrew Huberman:
That exists, too.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
So I think a lot of social anxiety comes from some people just don't know where the line is between normal, healthy, casual social exchange-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah, yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and being too sticky.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And this takes us back to the eyes.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I'll never forget freshman year of college, forgive me for weaving in a second anecdote. I had a roommate. We were triple room, but I had a roommate, and feedback from people around us, they're like, "What's wrong with your roommate?" I'm like, "What do you mean? He's a perfectly nice guy. He's super nice." And they're like, "No, he stares at people." And I thought, "Oh." And he was very, very tall. And I'm reasonably tall, but he was like really, really tall. And so I started noticing when we would stand in groups, he would just beam people.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
And so I pulled him aside and I said, "Hey, listen, Dave. You can't stare at people." He goes, "I'm just looking at them." And I'm like, "I know, but you can't stare at people."

Dr. Nick Epley:
It's too much, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
"You're creeping people out."

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay, where should I look? Now, he might've been a little bit on the spectrum. I don't know.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
We didn't have that language or understanding-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... about spectrum back then.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But I explained to him, I was like, "Just keep your gaze moving-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and stop." And we all loved him.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And he became part of our social circle.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right. Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
But in those first weeks of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... he was a little bit-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... he was giving people-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... an uneasy feeling.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So I think for a lot of people who have social anxiety, their concern is that they're going to be perceived as kind of creepy-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... or sticky, and no one wants to be that person.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm. Right. Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
And so it is an art.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
It is a-

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure

Andrew Huberman:
... a learning to-

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure

Andrew Huberman:
... understand that a fist bump is one thing-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... but just because you see that person again the next day, you remember their name, you're not best friends.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And you're not even really friends.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
You're being friendly.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
And I'm not trying to contaminate the positive waters here.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But I think a lot of people don't know how to develop this skill as a honed skill.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And they're really afraid, and I think it's not about someone calling the police because somebody's-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... being too sticky, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... yeah, if somebody doesn't call you back, they probably don't want you to ping them a third time.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? Or text you again.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think it always seems to sort of immediately deflect to men doing this to women.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I can tell you, a lot of women do this, too. So it's independent of sex, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
If somebody doesn't respond a third time, and it was a first-time meeting, and regardless of what the exchange was, translation, they don't want to continue the exchange for whatever reason.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And so how do you reconcile that when giving advice for people to be more outgoing? How do you keep people from being sticky?

Dr. Nick Epley:
I guess there's another way to think about it, too, is that a lot of sensitivity or concern about social anxiety is about running into sticky people. And there, I think, there probably is a gender difference, a sex difference, that women are likely to be more nervous about men misinterpreting something in a way that might become problematic or threatening for them.

Andrew Huberman:
Sure. Well, because of physical danger.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Exactly.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. Sure.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And so I'm super sensitive to that. And our data don't suggest that you should be ignoring risks or your senses about what's risky. But our data suggests that your sense about risk is off a little bit, and there are times where you might want to test some of those beliefs, and you might find some places where you're mistaken. I think the important thing from my perspective on this is that if you're really pessimistic about other people, it never gets corrected. You never get to find the great people to have a conversation with, right? But it does also mean that you will sometimes run into the people who aren't so great to have a conversation with, and you need to learn how to move on from those people, right? We're not friends with everybody. Certainly, that is true. But the other thing that you mentioned was the importance of this being a skill. It is something that you learn to do as you practice. I have become a better conversationalist. I've become a better public speaker. I've become better at doing this because I do it for a living, right? And I choose to try to do it and try to become better. And I try to be, when I'm interacting with other people, to be sensitive to them as well. Our data don't suggest that you should be reaching out to other people in order to make yourself feel good. Our data suggests that what feels good is when you take an interest in other people, and you open them up to you in a way that you would've avoided or missed before, and you'll just have a lot more positive experiences that way. But it does mean being sensitive to how they respond. And you do learn to do this over time with practice. Just like anything, you get better with practice, right? And so for folks who are concerned about starting or trying, my suggestion is just like when you're starting anything that you're nervous about or hard, you never exercised. The prescription is always to start small. Pick a little thing that's easy and safe. You know that person in the office who you've seen for years, but you don't know their name? Just go and say hi to them. Just see how that goes. And then try that with somebody else. Those are easy. Those are safe. That's not that difficult. And you'll get better at this over time, including figuring out how to do things like end conversations with somebody who's too sticky or to move along or like your advisor did, to recognize the person that's sticky, and then you can manage that a little bit differently. Those are skills you develop by approaching. You don't develop them by avoiding, and you miss a lot of people who are wonderful. My Uber driver, right? The young man, Gustavo, on my train ride yesterday morning. Brian on my flight here, to speak with you today on my plane last night. You miss a lot of great people, too, and that's what we find in our research that I think is perhaps the bigger cost. And just like Jia found, he missed opportunities to get help from other people and even to allow people to feel better for helping him because he was too afraid to ask.

Andrew Huberman:
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. A lot of people are on their phones texting with people they already know.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
They have an established relationship.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Presumably, they're continuing to maintain, if not build those relationships-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... by doing that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think that, going back to this eye gaze thing from earlier, eyes down into a little box-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
thicker shell to break through.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? I don't think any of us really feel comfortable interrupting somebody texting or on a call.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right. Correct.

Andrew Huberman:
I mean, I wouldn't do that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
You would think of it as bad manners, impolite.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, they're clearly in a conversation with somebody else.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, exactly.

Andrew Huberman:
The same way I wouldn't just-

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure

Andrew Huberman:
... walk up and interrupt.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Actually, yesterday I was at a social gathering, there was like three people talking, and these guys all knew each other. I was the stranger in the group, and you sort of learn, you have to quickly assess what is this conversation?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So I said, "Sorry, I don't know if I'm interrupting something critical-"

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... "but if so, I'm going to stand right here." No, I just said, "If I'm interrupting, I..." And they're like, "No, no, no." You have to be able to know how to-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... break into a conversation.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
It's very hard when people are on their phones.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It can be.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
The way I think of it is you're giving people an invitation.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I got off the train one morning, there was this guy, came up behind me. I remember this very distinctly. He was a little taller than I was. So I'm about 6 foot. He was probably 6 foot 3. Looks like an Orthodox monk, right? He's got this big long beard, graying beard, long hair. Looks like the last thing he would want to do is talk to another person. A very stern, kind of dead, off-to-work face. And, I saw him come up, sidle up next to me. He had already put his left earbud in, and he was putting his right earbud in at the same time, right? It would've been easy for me to infer that he didn't want to talk to me, right? But of course, nobody was talking to him either. Nobody's talking. And so that signal was a little ambiguous. What does it mean? Does he want to talk to me? It's not clear. He could be putting his earbud in because nobody's talking to him. He doesn't think other people want to talk to him, so he's just going to get off to work, right? Get away from all these jerks. I turned to him, I said, "Hi, I'm Nick." Most powerful words you have in your life. "Hi, I'm whoever you are. I'm Nick." He took out his earbud, and he turned to me, and he just came alive like I was flipping a switch on his back. Huge smile. "Hi, I'm Thibault." Turns out he was French, very strong French accent. We became friends over the years, right? We walked down four blocks to my office there. And so sometimes these cues can be ambiguous, and you don't know what the cue means until you test it. So the way I think about reaching out to connect with other people, to test our fears, right, our anxiety, our interpretations of other people, knowing that we can make mistakes with each other, is to think of it as an invitation, right? When I turned to Gustavo yesterday, Brian last night, my Uber driver this morning, I wasn't demanding anything. I was offering up an opportunity and invitation to connect if they wanted to, right? Didn't have to pull their earbud out. Brian last night had a little video game player in front of him, right? I thought maybe he wanted to play video games. No, he was happy to talk, right? We kind of went in and out. I had a manuscript review I had to do. But if you start thinking of these opportunities as potential places where you might be misunderstanding somebody, and don't take your beliefs about another person for granted, but treat them as bets that might be wrong, well, then you start to see places where maybe you'd made a mistake, and you give people an opportunity to show you, no. Thibault would've been happy to talk to me. We became friends over years, just because I was willing to test that initial belief I had, which was mistaken, that he didn't want to talk to me. And the problem that at least we find over and over again in our social lives is all too often we infer immediately, we have overly pessimistic expectations about how other people will respond to us when we try, and we just miss opportunities to connect with other people that we could have across the moments of our days, weeks, months, years of our lives that would just enrich our lives in lots of ways if we were willing to test those barriers that were keeping us from connecting with other people to see if, are they made out of steel or is it a pasta noodle? Sometimes they're pasta noodles.

Andrew Huberman:
The data I've seen suggests that more and more people are going to church. They're attending other religious gatherings. It seems that-

Dr. Nick Epley:
In just recent years-

Andrew Huberman:
Recently

Dr. Nick Epley:
... specifically.

Andrew Huberman:
Oh, yeah, it's really on the upswing. And my guess is there are a number of reasons for that. People want to meet people with a certain set of values. Maybe they are drinking less. Who knows? I think a component of those types of gatherings are that people generally are pretty friendly.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
It's pretty inviting, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
I mean, people still go to festivals, too.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
I didn't go, but Coachella was recently.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And people tend to be in a good mood at festivals.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes. I was at TED last week.

Andrew Huberman:
Okay.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And it was very friendly.

Andrew Huberman:
A very good example.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, so we could pepper with different examples, and I think it is important to do so. I didn't want to imply it was just churches. But these kinds of common gatherings where people are there-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... for their own reasons, but also to interact with others-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Absolutely

Andrew Huberman:
... including strangers.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
And I think this, in my mind, can be pretty well explained by the fact that people were indoors during the pandemic.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
A lot of people were anyway, and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... everyone's on their phones more and devices.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
So attending venues where there's clearly an impulse towards interacting with strangers. Actually, sauna gatherings are really big-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... in major cities.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
People not just sitting in a sauna-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... facing out like on bleachers-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes. Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... but in a round-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... and doing breathwork, and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... so and on and on. So, it's interesting. I think people really crave this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Earlier, we talked a little bit about your family and adoption.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And, I've heard you say in a previous podcast that you have a child or children who are particularly outgoing. And so-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes. Our youngest.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah, so if you're willing, would you share a little bit about that? It's a very-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... interesting and I think important example into, well, differences among humans.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And sometimes we think of differences as good/bad. In this case, it was clearly an example of how some people, by virtue of being more outgoing, having less fear, actually afford themselves and others a uniquely wonderful experience of life.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
So our youngest daughter, Lindsay, has Down syndrome. And we adopted Lindsay from China The research that I've been doing over the last 15 or so years with my collaborators, where we're finding over and over again how overly pessimistic we are about how other people will respond to us when we reach out to connect with them, has just really changed the way I live my life. It is sometimes hard to take behavioral science research and apply it to individual lives, but in my own life, I've seen ways to do this over and over again by testing some of these barriers and just being more open to reaching out and connect, realizing it's going to be more positive than I might imagine. So, about 10 years ago, my wife-- this is how this all got us to Lindsay in the end, and it came right through our research. I remember this so vividly. My wife, we were three months into a pregnancy. We had named our daughter Sophie at that point. We had had four kids by that time. We were open to more life, and Jen was open. And three months into the pregnancy, we learned our daughter had Down syndrome. And my response to that was to be very pessimistic. I was uncertain. I didn't know how this-- This was not where my mind was. I wasn't thinking that we'd be raising a child when we're in our 40s with Down syndrome. This was going to be hard. I know, though, how easy it is to misunderstand how you'd respond in a situation you're not in. And so my wife and I, and I'm not speaking for my wife's thoughts. My wife Jen is an angel. She's an amazing human being. As my college football coach said when he learned that I was going to ask her to marry me when I was a junior in college, he said, "Nick, you're marrying up." And he was absolutely right about that, marrying up. But for me, I was nervous about this. We started calling families who were raising kids with Down syndrome, every one of those families, trying to get their perspective, to learn what it would be like to be in the situation we weren't in. To a person, those families referred to their children with Down syndrome as a blessing. It was almost like they were reading off of a script. It was amazing to hear their stories about how their children, who did not have much social anxiety, were very open and loving and were like magnets in their family that everybody flocked around. They just brought joy and love and a broader view of what humanity could do with each other than they'd ever imagined before. Just enriched their lives, broadened their worldview in ways they couldn't have anticipated, was a blessing. Six months into our pregnancy, Sophie died. So children with Down syndrome face a much higher risk of miscarriage or stillbirth. Six months was a stillbirth. July 11th, 2016, our daughter died. It was horrible. It was the worst experience in our marriage we had ever had. We mourned that loss for a good long stretch. It was about a year. One morning, I went into the sunroom. My wife was sitting there. We had two chairs there. She was sitting in this chair where she always sits. And I said, "Honey, we were ready to have another baby. We could do this again. There are children out there who need parents. We've adopted two before. We know how this goes. We can do this again." We were ready. We were in the starting blocks. We were ready to go. And she turned to me and she said, "Would you be open to adopting a child with Down syndrome?" Had not even occurred to me that that was something we could do. I hadn't thought about it. My head was not there. All over again, I was back where I was three months before, thinking, "I don't know that we can do this. This is going to be super hard." And then, if you're a researcher, you do think about your data all the time. I started thinking again about where we were three months ago, calling all these families who talked about their kids as blessings. All this data, thousands and thousands of data points. By this point, as I'm talking to you now, we've run over 30,000 people in over 120 experiments, people reaching out to others, documenting ways in which they're underestimating how positively others will respond. They're making the choice to hold back too often rather than reaching out and engaging, connecting with other people too much. And here we had this choice right in front of us. My wife was offering it. Do we reach out and bring this child into our lives, this stranger, or not? And I was full of doubt here, all the same kind of doubt. How would she respond to us? Our data, though, gave me some courage here, like data-driven courage. Like, Nick, you are in the same position that all of your participants are in over and over again. And it gave me courage to go where my wife was and to say, "Yeah, we can do this. Honey, you and I can do this together." Now, Jen and I are in a position that's different from lots of other families. We have resources. She's a fabulous human being. We have a strong marriage. Raising a child with intellectual disability is challenging, but we could do this. And my data really made me feel comfortable that it wouldn't just be good, it would be surprisingly good. About a year after that, Jen and I boarded a flight with our four other kids. We're like a traveling circus show on our way to China. Folks had not seen a family like ours to adopt Lindsay, who's two years old. She was abandoned in China by a woman who we will never meet, whose thoughts about how hard this might have been or how little support she had to raise a child like Lindsay, we don't know. Lindsay had beautiful brown eyes, relentless smile, despite a really, really hard start in life. And that was how that started. And she has been amazing. She has been flat out amazing. Not without difficulty. Raising a child with an intellectual disability is really, really, really hard. At the same time, she has been what every other family has said that raising a child with Down syndrome would be like a blessing to us in so many ways. And to watch her go around the world, she gets frustrated and she's stubborn and she gets angry at people, but she also lives without the same kind of social anxiety that many of us has. She has no filter on her hello. Taking her grocery shopping is super fun. Goes up and down the aisles. She says hello to everybody. Everybody. And it's just like with my friend Tebo, who I flip the switch on his back, and he gives this big hello to me. She flips the switch on so many people's backs. Their faces light up when she says hello to them. And she walks around the world this way, open, hello to everybody. It's amazing. It's amazing. And I think about how close we could've been, I could've been to saying, "I don't think I can do this," because we failed to appreciate just how well things would go when we reach out to love someone, bring them into our lives when we could. And she's amazing.

Andrew Huberman:
What an incredible story. If you don't mind me asking, what is the relationship between your youngest daughter and the other children in your family? Because you described a beautiful set-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of examples with people-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... outside your family, and obviously-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... you and your wife have an incredible connection to her.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But what is her relationship to the other siblings?

Dr. Nick Epley:
She is the magnet in the family.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I mean, she's the baby. If you are in a family with a youngest sibling, you all glom around that youngest one. She is like that too for the siblings, too. Now, it's also hard. They need some time alone. But when you come home and Lindsey is there, I get a, "Hi, Dad," that's of a volume that every dad should hear when they come home.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
It is wonderful. The sisters and the brothers all get that, too. It's great. It's great. She is very connected to everybody in a way that I think even the other siblings aren't, potentially. They get older, they go their own ways, but everybody loves Lindsey.

Andrew Huberman:
Is it the case that children with Down are given up for adoption more? I mean, you described what I assume is a somewhat unique situation in China. Somebody, you said, abandoned her. She was given to an orphanage.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
I don't know anything about this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? I actually had a colleague that studied GABA transmission in the brain, in Down, but I have zero-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... minus infinity knowledge of this.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, you can adopt a child with Down syndrome today in the United States, and there's a waiting list for these kids in most places. The other thing that happens, though, is what could've happened to us at three months, and I think this is more common now as genetic testing allows you to tell whether your child has any number of different kind of genetic differences, the diversity on that dimension. And look, there's some conditions that are just very, very hard to manage or that aren't conducive to life. Down syndrome is just not one of those. But many families at that three-month period, because they're skeptical or pessimistic about how well they can handle this, they don't know the supports that are available. They don't realize the strength that they have or the amount of love that they will feel for this child once it becomes yours. Hardships notwithstanding, it is harder, no doubt about it, will end those pregnancies when, like us, might have found it to be a massive blessing in their lives. I don't know what to tell people to do with that other than telling our own story.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I think people have strength that they might not realize, and there are lots of very challenging conditions. Down syndrome is one that is not as challenging as you might imagine. These kids are amazing. Amazing. And our kids are our kids.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Even across, as we were talking earlier, however kids have come into your life, once they're your kids... I mean, the fact that she has Down syndrome is something that is always kind of on our minds because it governs lots of things we do, but it also fades very quickly. Lindsey's just Lindsey, right? She's got her own personality. She does her own things. The intellectual disability becomes almost like a background thing. It is not what defines her. She loves playing with dolls and Disney characters. She loves listening to stories. She loves reading books with you. She loves, loves, loves playing on the trampoline and playing in our outdoor kitchen. She loves playing with the neighbor kids, Demi and Delilah. They are her closest friends. She loves all those things. She has a huge personality, and that's what defines her and our lives day to day, not the diagnosis.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm. Well, I've only known you a short while, and I'm in no position to psychoanalyze you, but I have to assume that something very powerful about you, and I'm also assuming about your wife, Chen-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... that your very clear, complete lack of shame about the fact that she has Down has to be a positive force here in this. I'm not trying to take anything away-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... from who Lindsey is-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... as an individual.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But, I don't know if I want to darken the conversation with a contrast story, but I will. I won't reveal who this person is, but there's a very, very famous neuroscientist. It was pretty well known that he had a son who had epileptic seizures.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I mean, what's the shame in that?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? But he was ashamed of his son.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
He wouldn't bring him to events. He wouldn't bring him to things. I'm actually aware of several high-level scientists, and I have to be careful because I don't want to paint a negative view of scientists. I could tell you 1,000-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... stories about wonderful scientists doing wonderful-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... things for every bad story. But I remember hearing this and thinking, "This is crazy." Someone who worked in his lab said, "Yeah, he's got a Nobel Prize, but he's incredibly ashamed of his son." I thought, "That's nuts." I have a good friend, in the positive side, my good friend Eddie Chang, who's the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he works on epilepsy.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And you can treat various forms-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... of epilepsy.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
This wasn't intractable-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... epilepsy. So I think when parents have a shame about-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... a child's, what do you call it, condition-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... that has to impact the way that the child moves-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... in the world.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
I think it's really awesome- That there is like zero minus infinity shame detected.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Just have a-

Andrew Huberman:
I hear only glowing things and pride. And, I also don't detect any hints of like, "We're doing this really hard thing, and therefore we're amazing." But like you said, "She's just our daughter."

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
"And we have this relationship. We're her parents, she's our daughter, and we're just living life."

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Which I think is awesome. I think it's a real testament to who you are, and I think it's a real... And your wife and Lindsay, and I think it's a testament to what's possible when we get out of what do people think.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
It just seems like every, all goodness just emerges from it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. Now to be clear, it's been a struggle for me, too.

Andrew Huberman:
Sure.

Dr. Nick Epley:
I don't want to certainly-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Dr. Nick Epley:
... paint myself as not having concerns about this or being worried what people-

Andrew Huberman:
Her safety

Dr. Nick Epley:
... will think about us. Or even our other kids-

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah

Dr. Nick Epley:
... when they're going through difficult stretches in their lives. They're not doing the kinds of things that maybe I did, right? I have to make myself okay with that and come to accept that, and when I do that... So, I have another son who we just love dearly, who college just wasn't for him. I'm a third-generation PhD. One on my mom's side, and my dad is a PhD as well, and college is just the route, right? I've been in academic life for my whole... College was just the route, but it just wasn't for him. And he just wasn't engaging with it. And I kept, and I'm saying this with some shame myself right now, that we kind of kept him in this path thinking this is the right way to go, and it would've been clearer outside that this isn't what he wants to be doing. He finally came to us very clearly and said that, "You know, Dad, this is just not what I want to keep doing." And when we finally let go of that and just let him do what he wanted to do, which is now he's in a trade school, I've never seen him happier. We're just so proud of him. Now, like Gustavo, who I met on the train yesterday morning taking this culinary class, he's so proud of what he's doing. Just made me feel so good about him and also about my son, to let go of those things and just to love him for who he is. Every parent struggles with that. Every parent struggles with loving their kids for who they are, and that takes some practice, too, and also some deliberate, careful thought and attention. Um, and it's worth challenging yourself to do, because, of course, it makes the world of difference for them, and we all struggle to do that somewhat.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
With Lindsay, she's a ray of sunshine. We refer to her sometimes as a unicorn because there aren't too many out there. And we learned a little while ago, I don't know how true this is, I don't know who comes up with these things, but it turns out a collection of unicorns, do you know what it is ostensibly called? A blessing.

Andrew Huberman:
Really?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Really.

Andrew Huberman:
That's awesome.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Who'd have guessed? Look, I'm not... I don't, I... Yeah. I won't put that to some sort of factual test. That is what they're apparently called is a blessing, and that certainly has been what she's been for us.

Andrew Huberman:
A lot of lessons in there and a lot of things for people to think about in terms of who they are and how they relate to people. If you don't mind, I just would like to peel back another layer-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... on relationships with, I'll use the example of children, but it could be with other family member where that person is not typical of the-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm

Andrew Huberman:
... average population.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And you describe Lindsay in this beautiful way. I almost feel like she's a bit in the room, right? You know, the way you describe her. And I think when I'm out and about, and I see a parent or parents with a kid who has an, I don't know what the diagnoses are, right? How could I? An intellectual or some sort of atypical behavior.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
The way you describe her is very delightful.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Sometimes, the behavior of children with these challenges are disruptive.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
It's hard to not feel the shame of the parent. Like, if a kid's being really loud or throwing a tantrum, and this isn't a small child, for instance, or saying things that clearly don't make sense, and I don't expect you to be the ambassador for all these people. I think we as sentient, well-meaning people around, we don't quite know how to react to that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Do you want to say, "Gosh, I'm so sorry?" No, of course not. That's their life. Who are you-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... you also don't want to perhaps ignore them, but you also don't want people to feel like you're calling attention to them.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Do you have any ideas or suggestions? It must be an odd experience to move through life that way, um, and I'm so glad they don't isolate their kid.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But I think we've all been in this circumstance.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And we don't quite know how to react.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. So, I think a good analog to this is with stuttering, and I think we all know how to deal with stuttering. Somebody who has a stutter is you wait patiently.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And you don't call attention to it.

Andrew Huberman:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nick Epley:
You just wait patiently for them to express what they want to express, and then you carry on, right? And maybe sometime if you get to know somebody, you can ask more specifically about, "How would you like me to help in this particular case? Is there anything I can do to be of assistance? How would you like me to respond?" We can ask people that directly, right? Um, and often somebody, a caretaker, will be able to tell you that. But patience is, I think, the way to deal with it, just to wait until whatever they're trying to do becomes clear. And I think we can all do that with stuttering. I think that's kind of understood, and maybe that's the way I would think about it. But yes, some differences are harder than others, for sure.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah. Having grown up in a town, Palo Alto, where there are many, many professors and high-achieving parents, and I could list off a dozen or more examples of where the kids either didn't follow the traditional track.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
You could say, oh, they didn't follow the traditional track, but they became like a Pulitzer winning writer-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... or something like that. I'm not talking about that.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? I think it's so cool, by the way, that your son is in trade school. I have friends from all walks of life, and fulfillment is-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. I've never seen our son happier.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And it's wonderful.

Andrew Huberman:
We're two academics.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
My dad's an academic, and I can say that, I actually think I would've been happy doing any number of things. At one point, I wanted to join the fire service. My dad every once in a while, sorry dad, he'll say like- ... "Oh, I don't think that would've been fulfilling." I think it would be awesome. Like, work out. The dog. I love serving others. Get out and do things, and I'm friends with the local fire department when they come through. Like I certainly don't know what it is to do that profession-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... but I think fulfillment can be found in a number of ways.

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure.

Andrew Huberman:
For sure.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Fulfillment's about engagement, right?

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And people like firefighters. Being a cop is a little tricky because some people like you-

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure

Andrew Huberman:
... and some people hate you, and the job is much more-

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure

Andrew Huberman:
... from moment to moment is a lot less predictable.

Dr. Nick Epley:
For sure. I think one thing that we can do, and I haven't always been great at this in my family. I told you, it took me a while with my son to encourage him more down that path, and I am just now realizing that's what I need to be doing, is I think kids often will feel like they are not following the right path and won't feel good about the path they're going down, and that's where parents can really be helpful. We have right outside my office window is the University of Chicago Laboratory School, which is a very elite private high school, and it goes all the way through down to preschool as well. And the kids come out of there with a very clear expectation about what the right path is for them, and a lot of kids struggle with that. I just had a faculty member in my office yesterday before I left to get on a flight with you describing how their children are struggling, I think, with expectations for what they ought to be doing that just don't fit with who they are. And I think that's where parents can be really helpful for their kids, is loving them for who they are and helping them find what's going to make them the happiest and making sure the kids know that any path is okay. You want to be a carpenter, great. That job won't be AI'd at least, right? Or you want to get a PhD, fabulous. Whatever field, go for it, right? Trying to encourage kids with their passions and encouraging them to feel like it's okay. That's important.

Andrew Huberman:
You have another side of you that most people aren't aware of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm

Andrew Huberman:
... that we somehow landed on-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, we did

Andrew Huberman:
... walking in here somewhat randomly, which is-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... you enjoy as much time as possible in the out of doors.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
You're a hunter and a fisherman-

Dr. Nick Epley:
I am, yes

Andrew Huberman:
... an outdoorsman.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So you wanted to be Grizzly Adams.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. When I was a kid. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
But in some sense, you play him from time to time.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Sort of.

Andrew Huberman:
But not out on your own. So you-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... and your sons and daughters-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... go get out into the wilderness.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah. I grew up in rural Iowa, out in the country. My dad and I went hunting and fishing all the time when I was a kid. I was four years old the first time I went deer hunting with my dad, and I loved that time.

Andrew Huberman:
Four?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Four, yeah. I walked along, because we would-

Andrew Huberman:
Shorter than the rifle.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, yeah. No, I remember years where the snow would feel like it was up to my hips hunting deer in Iowa in early December. And I wouldn't carry a gun until I was 12, or a bow. I started bow hunting when I was 12. But before then, you would push the deer. You'd walk through the woods with other guys, with my dad, or with the friends that we'd have. It was a real community of people. The social connection there was great. We used to go hunting with a guy when I was a kid, Lane McDowell, who was friends with my dad. He was a football player for the University of Iowa, and he played for the Detroit Lions. He was this big monster of a man. Fabulous guy. And his son, Thad, who would go, who is also my same age. We played football together, against each other in high school. But yeah, I grew up doing that. And then, as I've gotten older, I've stayed connected to the outdoors. I love being in the woods. I love doing conservation kind of work. There's kind of an element of caring for other people that also extends to caring for the woodlands that are out there. I do a lot of invasive species removal. We have enrolled 40 acres in the conservation reserve program, planted 9,000 trees on it, and I see a lot of opportunities to connect with people in places that other people wouldn't. I see the outdoors, hunting and fishing. You almost never do that truly alone. Right? I always have somebody with me when I'm fishing. I always go out with the kids when I'm turkey hunting or hunting deers, and it's that social element that is really so important. And there was an element of this that just felt like it came right out of my research that happened last fall in Oregon. My oldest son, Ben, is a third-year PhD student at Oregon State, pursuing a PhD there. And bless his heart, last spring, he asked his dad to do the thing that made me just the happiest he could have done. He said, "Dad, would you like to come out here and go elk hunting with me?" I grew up in rural Iowa. The idea we'd be out in the mountains actually doing this just never was something that occurred to me that we could do, but he asked if we could do it, and I was so excited. We would get a week together out in the remote wilderness of Oregon, just the two of us, sitting around trees, looking for elk. It doesn't matter if you get one or not, whatever. That's not what it's about. It's about being out there and seeing what you see and being together, and it was going to be fabulous. And I was so excited. So last fall, this was October, November, can't quite remember the exact date, went into northeast Oregon, and we went out in the woods. We're miles away from the nearest road. We hike in. It's really hard. It's cold. There's snow on the ground. We're not really prepared for this. First time we've ever done this. We don't have any chairs with us or anything. We got backpacking tents, freezing our butts off. And the first day, we go out to scout. We don't know what we're doing here at all. We're just going to see, I don't know, where are the elk? How do we do this? We go down into this valley, and we're not there for more than 20 minutes maybe, when our time alone suddenly becomes a little more social than it would've been otherwise. We look behind us, three quarters of a mile up the valley, we got this group of guys coming in camo down the way. And my son, Ben, was a little nervous about this, right? A little anxiety about reaching out and connecting with other people, right? A little like you'd have somebody sits down next to you on a train, "Well, maybe I'll just keep to myself," or on a plane, "Just keep to myself." Here we're out in the wilderness, and we got this group of hunters. It's like a gang of men coming down the valley towards us, all in camo. And so Ben's, "Let's move on, Dad. Let's get going." And I said, "No, let's stay and talk with these guys." And And wait, they come down, and we start talking. It turns out these guys have been hunting in this valley, in this area for years, for decades. The older guy, Dennis, had been going with another older guy. I think they'd gotten connected through their church. The other older guy had passed away recently. But now they have another guy, Corey, who'd gotten connected to them, and the kids are all with them, Eric, and I think there were five at the time. And we just started talking, and then they start telling us how to do this, and where we could go, and how we could coordinate with each other to make sure we both had the best time that we could. And they told us, "Well, there's a blind up here where you could hunt, and you could go down there and hunt in this other spot." And we just started working together, and they were delightful. Just like it is when you reach out to connect with other people. They reach back to you. They invited us to their tent for dinner. I'll just never forget, they got this huge, this amazing wall tent. They've got a camp stove. They've got a spring where they get fresh water. They got a bathroom where they are. We walk into their tent. It's heated. We're freezing our tuchus off in the snow. We walk into their tent, the first thing they say to us, "Would you like red or white?" They got wine in their cabin miles from it. These guys were fabulous. And it turned an event that was great for Ben and I into an even better event because we connected with these men who now, just yesterday, Corey sent me a text message saying, "It's time to apply for your elk tags. This is when we're going to go and this is when we're going to come out, in case you want to do this with us again." And in fact, Corey got an elk the first day. He filled his bull tag. And we were coming back from hunting, Ben and I had seen one, but weren't able to get a shot at it. It was still amazing to see one. And we're walking back, and the young kids, Eric, is leading this group. He says, "Get on down there and show Corey how to bone out that elk." I've boned out many, many deer, so it's the only red meat we eat are the venison that I get. And, so I know how to butcher these animals and prepare them to eat. And they had just been hauling out these big quarters of animals, like 100-pound ribcage. There's a lot of bones that you don't need to be hauling out. So I got to go down and help Corey and show him how to bone out the backstrap and the loins and all the meat that you actually eat, and leave the bones that are there for the cougars and stuff to get later. And it was fabulous. And the courage that I had to talk with them, to connect with them out there, again, I felt just came straight from my research. That how easy it is to underestimate how positively other people will respond when you reach out to them. And here it would've been easy for us to be competitive or avoid this, and it was such a blessing to have connected with them. And we've stayed connected with them since, and I hope we see them again in the fall out there in the woods. It would be fabulous. Wonderful men.

Andrew Huberman:
That's awesome. And thanks for putting in a strong, clear, ethical picture of hunters. I think a lot of people have a picture of hunters that is very different than what you just described.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
My friend Cam Hanes is serious about preserving wildlands-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... and he's a very, very serious bow hunter. And I mean, there are really shining examples.

Dr. Nick Epley:
There are.

Andrew Huberman:
There are bad apples out there, too.

Dr. Nick Epley:
There are.

Andrew Huberman:
But I think people often have a certain stereotype of hunters. And yet most of those people also buy store-bought meat from factory farms.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And so, not to guilt anybody, but there's a lot more to explore there. So I appreciate not just the description of the beautiful social interaction and what grew from it, but also the context.

Dr. Nick Epley:
There's a level of caring. I care about the woodlands, and I try to protect it as best I can. In terms of the deer are kind of a threat. A lot of ecological damage that they cause in the woodlands in the Midwest because there are just a lot of them. And so harvesting responsibly and respectfully. I only hunt with a crossbow now, for instance, because I can be much more accurate with it. And so I can take an animal ethically and humanely and quickly, and that's why I do that. And so most of the hunters that I've ever met are that way. They care about being outdoors. They like being with each other. Getting an animal is part of it, but is not the main thing. And, yeah, folks who don't hunt, I think, don't appreciate that care that people have, outdoorsmen have for the outdoors.

Andrew Huberman:
What a great lesson for your son. He's lucky to have you as a dad. I can say that-

Dr. Nick Epley:
It was a wonderful week

Andrew Huberman:
... it's awesome. I was reflecting on a couple things which leads me to probably what is the final question in a minute or two. But I was just sort of chuckling inside at one moment because, so you're describing that. I'm thinking, okay, so my dad was a theoretical physicist.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So bringing me to work was a little different.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
I mean, we did a great many things together.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
But he realized, and he's quite smart, and he realized that showing me a bunch of equations on a whiteboard wasn't going to cut it. So I'll never forget, he started off as an experimentalist. And so my first go to work with Dad day was he took me into the lab, and they had all these fruit out.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh.

Andrew Huberman:
And a big tank of liquid nitrogen.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh.

Andrew Huberman:
And we spent the day dipping bananas-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh my goodness

Andrew Huberman:
... into liquid nitrogen, smashing them on walls-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh my goodness

Andrew Huberman:
... which, for a six-year-old kid was like pure delight.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, that's the most awesome thing.

Andrew Huberman:
I went back to school telling all my friends-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
... that I could shatter bananas and all this stuff.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
So wasn't quite what you described, but I have fishermen on my mom's side and-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... my girlfriend's family. She's got a long line of hunters and farmers. So I think they're going to put me to the test soon, but-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Well, here's to parents doing great things with their kids

Andrew Huberman:
... well, and that's the question I was going to ask. In fact, to do the opposite of trivialize older generations teaching younger generations about what proper social interactions are.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
The other thing I was thinking during your story is that this is how social dynamics and learning occurs in our species.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Like if that series that was on Netflix, the "Chimp Empire" series. Did you watch it?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Oh, I have not seen that, no.

Andrew Huberman:
Oh, wow.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Okay.

Andrew Huberman:
Fascinating because it's all about social dynamics in chimps.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Okay. Yep.

Andrew Huberman:
Everything from covert gaze, and they're brutal to each other.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes, they are.

Andrew Huberman:
They ostracize.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
It's very intense.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Rip each other's arms off almost.

Andrew Huberman:
And there's also a lot of beauty, but it's not just a bunch of happy chimps.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
It's intense.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
Warring between-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yep

Andrew Huberman:
... troops and so forth. But it makes you think about our species. And I'm raising a puppy right now, and I was telling my girlfriend because she's not raised a puppy before. She's better at it than I am already, of course. And I explained to her, I said, "The fastest way to train Strummer, our little bulldog mastiff, would be to get an older dog.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm.

Andrew Huberman:
Because here we are, teaching it these human cues and trying to... But we really need to get into the mindset of a dog, and only a dog can really do that. They're so nose-led. They're great at sensing, literally, the autonomic tone of people around them. They're sensitive to space. Here we are saying, "Sit and stay," and do it like-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
They hear it, but like-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... we're bringing them... It'll be like us trying to learn how to use our noses to navigate. So it is a fact that within every species, the older members of that species teach the younger members of that species how to socialize.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And I could rattle off lots of examples from my own life, but I won't, where I observed-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes

Andrew Huberman:
... my mom and dad doing certain things in certain situations. And so, while on the one hand, until now, I feel like we've been talking to the young listeners and stuff. The parents of kids or the to-be parents of kids or the siblings or the older, or people who don't even have kids, modeling really good-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... social interactions, I firmly believe, based on everything we've talked about today, that is every bit as critical as the person getting out there and pushing themselves past their anxiety to do the right things. We need to model better everyday social interactions. And so it's clear you did that in this example and in other examples.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
So any ideas off the top of your head as to the, let's just call it the 40-and-up crowd. It's kind of-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... on us to model really good social-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... interactions, because that's how, just like Strummer would learn better from a dog, learning from the internet is great, but a lot of kids don't have.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Maybe they have a single parent or they're-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... away from their parents or-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... the ship passed, or maybe-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... maybe mom or dad was kind of a nasty person, unhappy person.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Or overly outgoing, and it got them hurt.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So what do you recommend people do to model really good social interactions?

Dr. Nick Epley:
So pay attention to your habits. That's the most important thing. It's those little moments and, where I screw up, I'm prone to a quick temper and where I've made-- I still have the college football player inside me.

Andrew Huberman:
You like to hit things with your head?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Well, I want to fix something, right? And so if something's not going my way, I'll try to fix it in some way. And so I still have that inside me from time to time, and I have to actively try to create habits that don't do that. So, get out of a situation if I'm getting frustrated rather than try to respond and correct it in that moment. But those little habits, that's where it shows up. People are watching. People are watching you in those moments. Those little things that you think aren't that important are what folks are paying attention to. In our research, when I think about how you apply the stuff we're learning in our experiments about people being overly pessimistic about how others will respond to them, the way you apply that in your own life isn't that you learn how to behave differently from learning this. It's that you take that, and you try to develop a little habit that then makes that something you do routinely over and over again. So, for instance, one little thing that I have started doing with this routine little habit in mind is I've made a habit when I get into my office, and it's now expanded kind of beyond that, but I started at the office. I was realizing one day that when I get to the office where the door is to get into the building, I've got maybe, I don't know, 150-yard walk through the atrium in the middle of the building to the elevators, up to the fourth floor, down my halls to my office. And I was usually making that walk with my head down, focused on getting to work as quickly as I could. And I was passing all these people by without saying hello or hi or whatever, and I was missing all these opportunities just to brighten my mood a little bit there. And so I started doing a little happiness walk, a little hello walk when I'd go from the door to my office. Where now, when I walk in, I keep my head up, and I smile and say hello to almost everybody I pass if I can, right? So this last quarter, Nigel's been sitting right here to my right when I walk in at the table. And Keith, who's got the biggest smile in the building, one of our custodial staff, is delightful. Mario's usually somewhere around the second floor. I can give him a shout-out on the way in. Zya is often around the elevator when I walk in. Eric, Virginia, Jane, Emma, Joe, my colleagues, when I walk in, I give them a shout-out hello when I walk by their offices. And that whole thing, that just makes me a little brighter when I get to my office. And it's also created a habit that I now just do without thinking, right? And those little moments that become part of who you are, that's what people see. And I think as a parent, if you can think about how can you cultivate those habits to do these things routinely because your kids are watching all the time, that's what's going to matter. I had a colleague one time, I thought this was very wise. He realized that he was sometimes swearing in class. And I sometimes am guilty of that, too. That's my college football player coming out. I've got to be careful. I try not to do that. But I had one colleague who was adamant, and this is really what got me started thinking about this years ago, just you never slip up in class because when you do that there, people see that, and they think that's who you are and what's appropriate in that context. And that's just not the way you want to be. So he's made a habit of never doing that anywhere, in any part of his life, so that he also doesn't do it in class.

Andrew Huberman:
I like the notion of classroom rules. It's actually one of the only ways I've survived social media is I don't get into exchanges that I wouldn't get into in a classroom.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Good for you. Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman:
And I also don't honor the presence of comments. People can say what they want about me, to a point. But when they start attacking each other, I always think, if we were back in an undergraduate-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... graduate or medical school classroom, I would never let this exchange-

Dr. Nick Epley:
You'd stop

Andrew Huberman:
... occur.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And this is my website, so.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Blocked.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Right.

Andrew Huberman:
And people think, "Oh, you're blocking things, you're deleting." It's not to avoid criticism, it's like we're trying to keep a tone of education and respect.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
Right? And it can be heated, but so I fully appreciate what you just said.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And I think the key to that is that it's not a huge thing, it's a small thing that you do routinely and over and over again.

Andrew Huberman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nick Epley:
And those small habits are important to keep in mind.

Andrew Huberman:
I've been told by some of the people that are regular kind of commenters and things that they feel safe to comment there.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Nice.

Andrew Huberman:
Which tells me they feel-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... unsafe to comment elsewhere.

Dr. Nick Epley:
On other places, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
And the safe/unsafe thing, I'm not trying to use snowflake language. I think, who wants to go online just for people to be nasty, right?

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah.

Andrew Huberman:
So there's a lot of goodness to be had by keeping classroom rules, I guess-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Correct

Andrew Huberman:
... as we.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Correct.

Andrew Huberman:
Well, Nick, thank you so much for coming here today and sharing. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule, and I also really appreciate the work you do. Also, thank you for writing the book, 'A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection', which comes out very soon. I'm excited to read it.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew Huberman:
And I have to say, of all the guests we've ever had on this podcast, I think you represent the kind of extreme example of somebody whose work has informed their life and life has informed their work.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman:
And that's somewhat straightforward to do when it always makes for kind of the easier, better, obvious choice. Like, oh, did research, discovered this style of cardiovascular exercise is better than that one, I'm going to do that one. But as you pointed out, it's brought many, many rewards than it has challenges. But in your case, your sensitivity to the theme of your work, which is that there's goodness and untapped beauty to be had in the spaces that we don't reflexively step into, and that maybe even we initially are a little averse to-

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yeah

Andrew Huberman:
... that that's where the real magic often lies. And you applied it in your own life in the realest of ways, and you benefit, too.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
And that's the whole point.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Yes.

Andrew Huberman:
So thank you for being both a scholar and a shining example of what you've taught us today.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Thank you so much, Andrew. It's been wonderful being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Andrew Huberman:
All right. Well, come back again.

Dr. Nick Epley:
Thank you. I would love to.

Andrew Huberman:
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nick Epley. To learn more about his work and to find a link to his new book entitled 'A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection', please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled 'Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.' This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called 'Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.' And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nick Epley. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.