How to Make Yourself Unbreakable | DJ Shipley

DJ Shipley: I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. You know, my idol, Matty Roberts, I've talked about him a couple of times. I really, really hung onto that dude. He was my true north. He was the guy. And when he got shot up... When you see it happen... You know, but I think that was the closest call for a fire mission the entire Iraq War. Like, inside of 15 meters.

DJ Shipley: I mean, Corey Mike, Mike from the AC-130 gunship, it was on top of you. A belt-fed machine gun just chewing us up. Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy, and we're all crowded behind this tractor tire. Just... you felt like a victim. Like, I felt helpless. I'm getting rounds poured all over me, and at a certain point, you just go, 'I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor.'

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley is a retired Navy SEAL who served for 17 years, much of that time as a Tier 1 operator, meaning part of an elite, highly selective special operations unit within the SEALS.

Andrew Huberman: In recent years, DJ has emerged as a top public educator on the topics of how to structure your days to maximize your mindset for the sake of physical and mental health, as well as performance in work or school, and to best support and build your closest relationships. As you'll soon learn from DJ, there are key points in your day when you can take specific physical steps, including but not limited to physical exercise, to shift your mind away from rumination, distraction, and frustration to a state of immense clarity, focus, and drive.

Andrew Huberman: Through trial and error, DJ has figured out, and he shares with us, how that process is done and how you can do it too, right down to the details. What he describes goes way beyond a standard morning routine or evening routine, and most importantly, is accessible to all of us. You also won't hear any cliches or fluff in today's discussion. DJ is very specific about what to do and when, and how in order to become the best possible version of yourself.

Andrew Huberman: You'll often hear those words out there, how to become the best version of yourself or reach your potential, but what DJ does so beautifully is he explains exactly how to do that. And he shares his story of how he joined and moved through the SEAL teams and the victories, but of course, also the immense challenges and losses that he and his teammates experienced. We also discuss addiction, PTSD, and depression, and new paths for overcoming those.

Andrew Huberman: In particular, a new medical treatment, ibogaine, followed by DMT, and how that's being used to help veterans overcome addiction, PTSD, and suicidality. I've paid close attention to that work over the last five years because the brain imaging aspect is being done by my colleague, Dr. Nolan Williams, at Stanford. I should mention that the ibogaine/DMT process we discuss is not a recreational one. Rather, it's being done as part of clinical trials and dedicated research studies.

Andrew Huberman: DJ explains that process firsthand, and at the same time, I should mention that ibogaine and DMT are still illegal in the United States. They are not FDA-approved, so no one should explore their use outside of these clinical trials. However, the FDA is looking seriously at these compounds, and approval for them seems quite likely in the next 12 months or so. Today's discussion is one that anybody, male, female, young, or old, can benefit from.

Andrew Huberman: DJ has immense knowledge, he has immense experience, and he has an incredible ability to take what he's learned and turn it into actionable steps so you can improve your mental health, physical health, and performance, and become the best possible version of yourself.

Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

Andrew Huberman: In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with DJ Shipley.

Andrew Huberman: DJ Shipley, welcome.

DJ Shipley: Thank you so much for having me, man.

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about mental health, physical health, and spiritual health, but not all at once. You talk a lot about and you post a lot about mental health, but I've noticed that a lot of that takes on a sort of a protocolly approach where you use physical steps to approach mental health and vice versa.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So, what's your framework on this thing that we call mental health? I'm not asking you to solve the mental health crisis in one swoop, but when you think about your own mental health, the people close to you, people you've worked with in the teams, you know, how do you approach mental health as a concept and as an actionable thing?

DJ Shipley: I've lived so many different stages in my life. High points and low points, and everything in between. And at my lowest point, I had no physical connection. I was either down hard with an injury, coming back from surgery, and then my mental health rapidly declined right after that. And for someone who never suffered from mental health issues, it's shocking, and you feel like you're the only person going through it, especially when you come from a subculture of special operations. Nobody ever talks about it.

DJ Shipley: So when you find yourself in that dark room alone, really contemplating some terrible things, it's hard to wrap your head around because you're the only person that's ever gone through it. And, you know, I had some really good strength coaches and coming back from injuries, and the better I got physically, my mental health naturally just started to pull out of it, but everything we did was for the group. So, all my physical attributes, everything I'm training, is for the betterment of the group.

DJ Shipley: Now it's the betterment of my family, of my tribe, of whatever I have, but, you know, I talk about this thing, stacking up micro wins. My morning routine is structured in a way to where I can do that same routine everywhere I go, everywhere. At any point of the day, I can lock that thing in, but it all starts with an evening routine. So when my phone goes off at 5:00 AM, and I spring feet out of bed, I know exactly what I'm going to do for the next 12 minutes to put myself in a position to not be stressed.

DJ Shipley: I have to power down my home life and I've just have to think about what's coming next. So laying out the clothes the night before, my bottle of water is filled, my pills are out, my toothbrush is out, everything is set so as soon as I get up... By the time I get to making my morning cup of coffee, I've done 25 things inside of my control.

Andrew Huberman: Do you know off the top of your head what those things are right now that maybe you could just list them off? You said your alarm clock goes off at 5:00 AM.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And that's regardless of when you went to sleep?

DJ Shipley: Regardless of when I went to sleep, typically. I mean, if I'm out here, I'm on a different time zone, and I can change it, but for the most part-

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

Andrew Huberman: But if you get to bed at midnight or you get to bed at 9:00 PM or you get to bed at 2:00 AM, alarm goes off at 5:00 AM, you're up?

DJ Shipley: And my wife gave me this the other day. I came home on a red-eye. I didn't walk through the door until 2:30 in the morning. And the alarm clock goes off at 5:00, and she rolls over and she's like, "What are you doing?" "I'm going to work." And she's like, "You can take a day off." I'm like, "No, I'm not taking a day off." These last five days are the first time in as long as I can, in 20 years, that I've actually taken five days of not working out when I have the physical ability to do it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I've never taken five days off, because I'm so afraid my mental health will drop.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Something will happen if I leave that routine. So I wake up, unplug my phone, shut off the alarm. I walk in, toothpaste on the toothbrush. I go to the bathroom. While I'm brushing my teeth, spit it out, all the pills I have to take in the morning, you know, vitamin D, all the stuff I take, and then I get dressed. Left sock, right sock, right shoe. Everything I do, I do it in a very specific order. Even the way I put on my bracelets. If I put them on in the wrong order, I'll stop and I'll de-jock them all and I'll re-don them just because that's one simple thing. I'm not rushed.

DJ Shipley: I'm not under duress. I'm in control this entire timeline, and that way, when I get to the kitchen, I don't feel like I'm frantic, 'Where are my keys? Where's my wallet? Where's my bag?' Everything's in a system right now to where I can step in that car, I'm not stuck behind a school bus, my car has gas in it, my phone's at 100%.

DJ Shipley: Because we've all been there. Everybody's a normal person. I wake up. My wife wants to have a 15-minute conversation. That puts me behind that school bus that I'm typically not behind. Now I'm late for my first meeting. I have to rush through my workout. I don't have time to take a shower.

DJ Shipley: All that is going to cascade, and it's going to put me to be the person I don't want to be when I have to walk into that first meeting. It's like, I'm trying to optimize everything that's within my control, so when I step through the threshold, this is the DJ that I'm purposely presenting to you right now, under my control. And that really sets the entire framework for the whole day of being in a good headspace. I'm controlling the things that are controllable and the things that I can't control, I don't think about them anymore. I block them out.

Andrew Huberman: I love the regimen and your adherence to it. I'm curious about your mindset when the alarm goes off.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Meaning, where is your head? I guess, I know you're human and I understand enough about the brain to make an assumption, which is that you don't wake up every morning with the alarm going off at 5:00 thinking, 'Great. I'm going to get up and just roll right into the day,' that there may be times when you consider going into fetal position. You know, it's warm under those covers.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But also that your mind, like anyone else's, probably starts spinning. It leaps to the past, leaps to the... You know, a little more stress than you'd like, a little more lethargy, this kind of thing. Do you purposely stack up to-dos so that you stay out of all of that? And if some of that persists as you're brushing your teeth, what's the way of dealing with that?

DJ Shipley: I just keep pushing.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I just keep myself in motion the entire time, and I talk about dials, not switches, a lot with people. And it sounds selfish, but I have to be selfish right now in order to be selfless later.

DJ Shipley: So I tell guys, you know, "As soon as that alarm clock goes off, I'm not thinking about my wife, I'm not thinking about my kids. I'm thinking about being as efficient as humanly possible, and I'm trying to hit that gym so I unrack at 07:00 the best version of me. And I can't do it if I'm thinking about a fight or an argument we had with the wife the night before, the kids, and this and that."

DJ Shipley: I have to be selfish right now because this is the only block I'm going to have for me to optimize myself, because at 10:00 AM, I'm going to get pulled from 50 different directions. It's the exact same thing when I go home. So now, between the hours of 10:00 AM and 6:00 PM, I'm only thinking about work. I don't think about my wife, don't think about my kids. I only think about the team and everything we're trying to do.

DJ Shipley: At 6:00, you can watch, and I tell everybody, "If you would put a hidden camera in my car, it'd break the internet." I do it every day. I slam that car into park. I put my phone on do not disturb. I check social. I check all my texts. I'm good. There's no phone calls and I've got a 12-minute drive from door to door. Those 12 minutes, I put on Chris Stapleton, something that makes me feel good, that calms me down, and I pre-rehearse everything that's going to happen the moment I hit that garage door opener.

Andrew Huberman: Really?

DJ Shipley: I do it every single day.

Andrew Huberman: I realize it's personal, but to the extent that you're willing, maybe share a couple of what you're rehearsing.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: I pull onto the driveway. I slam it back in park. I check my phone one more time and I tell myself, "You're only going to have three hours, from 6:00 to 9:00, to be the person they need you to be. You have to be a full-time dad right now. You have to be a full-time husband." And I don't get it right every time. Some days, I drag that stuff home with me, two-hand texting frantically, but I really try not to. And before I hit that garage door, I tell myself, like, "They don't know what's going on. They don't know the stress you're at, at work. She's had her own day. They've had their own day."

DJ Shipley: You know, I've got a daughter in seventh grade, I've got another one in second grade. We have to work through this whole thing together, and it's like, what version of me do I want to present to them right now? I'm going to walk in, bag's over my right shoulder, I'm going to clear the threshold, and make an immediate 90-degree turn, and there's going to be that seven-year-old, and she's a huge ball of energy. She gets all shaken. She runs at me at full blast, and I pick her up, shake her, kiss her, like, 100% love. Take an immediate right in the kitchen, there's my oldest, usually eating something before homework's about to start.

DJ Shipley: Give her a kiss, give her a hug, ask her how her day was. Straight to the room to see my wife, because she gets like a 30-minute buffer before she has to go upstairs and lock in with seventh-grade homework. Check her, "What do you need? If you can fold the towels, if you can start dinner, done."

DJ Shipley: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, my last interaction in the morning was positive. I left on a positive note. The first interaction you're getting at the end of the day is in a positive note, regardless of how I'm feeling. If I have to fake it, I'll fake it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I got three hours, and if you space over the course of five days, I don't have a lot of time to make positive memories. Just because of work and stress and everything else. I'm trying to maximize those three hours, and then when I do, it feels like you can do no wrong. But every night after we finish dinner, me and my wife do a 20-minute walk. Ten minutes for her, so as soon as we start it, "Tell me about your day." Everything she wants to vent through, everything we have to get caught up on, we hit the halfway mark right around this park, and then it's my turn for 10 minutes.

DJ Shipley: An average human can walk a mile in 20 minutes, helps circadian rhythm, helps digestion, I mean, mental clarity. I'm not on my phone. There's no stimulus. I'm watching the sunset. But now it's 20 minutes just for us to reconnect, and we do it every single day. Unless it's a torrential downpour, we're doing it every single night, and our marriage has never been better.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: My physical health has never been better, and then my time with my kids, I can be accountable for every single minute in my day. Did I maximize that opportunity? No. Why? Because I drug that dude home with me from 2:30 in the afternoon, I drug him all the way home till 6:00.

DJ Shipley: That's not who they need. They don't need a commando. They don't need a business owner. They don't need an entrepreneur. They need a dude that's going to have a tea party right now, or a guy that's going to talk about how difficult navigating seventh grade is.

DJ Shipley: Like, she really needs a husband that's going to be fully present, because I haven't been for the majority of our marriage. I've been gone, you know, 300 days out of the year. She really just needs a buddy who's going to help parent, and if I'm not mentally there, I'm never going to get there. So I set conditions to where I can be the person I need to be, no matter what threshold I'm walking through, and it's been hugely beneficial for me.

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Andrew Huberman: What an awesome example.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And the two dos are super impressive. I wonder if we could just explore a little bit of the to-not dos.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: A lot of what you described, it's clear. It requires having the phone away. I mean, I could go on and on about phones, but the incoming is incessant, right? You know, and the temptation is really tough to deal with. So when you walk in the door, because you're with family, phone is in the car, or it's just shut off.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: During the day, when you're going about your work, is it understood that if your wife wants to get ahold of you, she can, but there's a high threshold for that? Because I think a lot of couples get into, you know, just pinging each other here and there, this and that. Even in business teams, there's a lot of unnecessary communication.

DJ Shipley: I'm fortunate now that my wife actually works inside the business, so she gets it, and she knows that once I lock in, when that camera turns on, that microphone goes on, you have to leave me alone. And I tell people, like, "I'm not trained to do this." I'm a normal dude, so I'm really susceptible to negative energy, and they know better. Don't slam me with something negative before I have to turn that microphone on, because I'm not going to be able to compartmentalize it all the way. I need to be the best version of me right now, so wait till I'm done and then deliver the bad news. And she's the same way. She's an absolute gangster, and she knows.

DJ Shipley: She's like, "Hey, when you get done today, we have to talk." I'm like, "What is it?" And she says, "Nothing bad." It'll definitely be something bad, but she doesn't even give me an inkling because she knows it'll rob me of bandwidth. She's like, "Go do what you do. As soon as you get done, we'll talk." And on that 20-minute walk, she'll drop it. But now we're here. I'm in a clear headspace. I've had a productive day. We've had a great 10 minutes into this. Now hit me with the bad news. Last 10 minutes, we'll solve it together.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But not getting on that social media first thing in the morning. I used to be the guy. I'd roll over. I'd immediately open up Instagram, and I'm checking it. What are the comments? How's the posting doing? How's this? How's that? You'll stay there for 40 minutes.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And then if you see something negative, I'll ride that, I'll wear that jacket all day long. I can't get it away from me.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So, I don't take a Zoom call, I don't take a phone call. There's nothing that happens inside of my orbit before 10:00 AM. From 7:00 to 10:00, that's my morning block. I've got the whole team in there. We do fitness from 7:00 to 9:00. I make them all do a 20-minute walk. I make the whole team protein shakes. I take a shower, and at 10:00 AM, I walk out. "Hit me with it. What have we got to do? We're going to range in my training, and we're shooting content. What are we doing right now? You have full bandwidth until I leave here."

DJ Shipley: And if I run till midnight, we run till midnight, but you have both barrels of me at 100% because I've controlled that entire morning routine. And it's been the best thing that's ever happened to us. But you have to be consistent. It's like everything else.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: What's the best diet? The one you'll stick to.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And that morning routine has been the biggest game-changer I've had.

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome. I feel like the teams, and I've been fortunate to know and work with some folks from the teams, seem to have what I call kind of an 'unconscious genius,' as a whole, as a system.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: We could talk about buds, we could talk about selection for Tier 1 stuff, we could talk about any of that, and we will. But it seems to me that a lot of the practices that are built up in the teams and in team guys who are successful when they transition out are built around this notion I just call 'unconscious genius,' where they weren't thinking about, like, 'What's the underlying neural circuitry?' Or this and that. And everything you describe, by the way, is, is extremely actionable for anybody.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I love that you told us, and I'm going to underscore this, highlight it, and bold it right now, is that it doesn't matter if you went to bed at 2:30 AM or you went to bed at midnight, you're getting up at the same time. It's actually critical for keeping sleep rhythms healthy. And one thing from the literature I'll just share is that it's clear that if people have the same wake-up time each day, that whatever sleep they get prior to that wake-up time, you get the maximum amount of growth hormone release that's possible, which is, of course, crucial for recovery.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Not just growing muscles, but recovery, et cetera. So there's that. You guys came to that. There's that kind of, you didn't need to know the science. You just arrived at it. But also, the brain is so context-dependent. And throughout your description, I keep hearing that, you know, if there's... you'll wear that jacket all day long. Like, it can pull you in. I mean, you're a strong-minded individual, you know how to control your own behavior, clearly, but you are susceptible like anybody else.

Andrew Huberman: And I always think of mental states as that, you know, we can either be like a ball bearing on a flat surface, where that ball bearing can go anywhere with even just the slightest tilt or even a breeze, versus little dimples in that surface, where it can kind of reside, but it can get blown out or pushed out easily. And ultimately, what we're all seeking is to drop like a ball bearing into a trench.

Andrew Huberman: And rage bait and numbing out, which are the two kinds of core features of social media, except there's this other opportunity to learn. I feel like those drop us immediately into that trench. And so, I feel like our brain wants to be the ball bearing at the bottom of that trench. But it's tempting to not do the work to get there.

Andrew Huberman: And so, there are things in the world, highly processed, highly palatable foods, you know, certain aspects of social media, because I don't think all of it is unhealthy, that provide that opportunity to drop into that trench. And so, clearly, the unconscious genius here is that you arrived at, it seems, an understanding that you're very context dependent. You know? It's not that you're so robust internally that you can throw anything your way.

Andrew Huberman: It's exactly because you're, if I may, you're not that robust internally, that you understand the brain, that you can't let anything come your way. But if you set the context internally, then the rest of your day is maybe not a breeze, but it's workable. And you'll stay that ball bearing in the trench that you're determining. Do I have that right?

DJ Shipley: Exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Okay. So, I think this is important, because I think a lot of people hear about special operators and high performers and their structure and their routine, and they assume, they wake up and they're like, 'Into the day, nothing's going to bother me.' It's because things have the potential to bother you that you have to structure it that way.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Okay. For me, that's very helpful to hear. And I think you're also defining the difference between an artist. I know a lot of artists. They kind of float about their day, they're two hours late to things, and then the stuff emerges, right? I mean, I can tell you stories about people in Los Angeles and how meeting times, and I'm a little guilty of this, but it's incredible the way that things just kind of orbit around certain people. But then they bring the magic, and so the world continues to orbit around them, versus an operator.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And I feel like everything you described is like the essence of being an operator. You're approaching your civilian life the same way, presumably, you did your operating life.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So, let's say you have a morning where something goes wrong. There's no toothpaste in the toothbrush. Or something more serious.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Like your wife really needs to talk about something.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Maybe she's so, you know, together that that never happens. Will you forego those minutes, or how do you deal with that?

DJ Shipley: The situation really dictates. When I was in, I wouldn't. I'd wake up before everybody else is in there, and it's a lot of stuff I tell to the new guys in special operations, like, "If you sacrifice your sleep, when it doesn't affect anyone else, you can really lay the foundation for greatness." Right?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: "Your first four years, don't rush to make her your girlfriend. Don't make her your wife. Don't have a kid. Don't get a dog. Just focus on being a Green Beret. Focus on being a Navy SEAL and just do that. Then, when that girlfriend turns into a fiancée, you can have the bandwidth to do them both."

DJ Shipley: It's very hard to do that job, you know, build that boat at the high seas, and now you're dragging your wife into it. It's hard to do. But the situation dictates. If it's something I really have to solve, we really have to solve it. But she knows, no matter what, I'm unracking at 07.

DJ Shipley: I'm not missing this for you, I'm not missing it for everybody else, because she knows what's going to happen. So, she'll either grab me at lunch, "Hey, do you have a block here we can talk?" For sure. We'll maybe start the initial conversation. If it starts going south or I think it's going to take long, I'll look down at my watch, like, "Honey, I have to go. I got 12 minutes to be there." She's like, "Okay. We'll catch you for lunch." "Cool." And we'll go. I can't miss morning movement. I can't do it. That will ruin my day.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And if I'm rushed through morning movement, if somebody comes in, somebody beats on the door, and they're like, "Hey, we were in the neighborhood, just wanted to come see you, can we talk for 20 minutes?" "No. You can't. No. I'm sorry. And I know it sounds bad. You can't, because I know what happens if I miss this day. And I'm not willing to take the chance on you right now. You can wait an hour. Wait till I'm done."

DJ Shipley: But it's hard. You know, and now we've kind of restructured the whole day to where I can get my time in in the morning, and I can leave with just enough time to see my kids wake up now.

DJ Shipley: They're pouring cereal, so now I get that little dopamine hit of seeing them, and I kick off their morning in a positive way. Right? I'm doing red light therapy in the morning. I'm still going to unrack at 0:07. I'm still getting up at 5:00, but now I'm just in the house getting everything processed. I'm going to leave on my terms, and that way, they get to see me first thing in the morning. I only get three hours at night. Well, if I get 30 minutes in the morning, stacked over the course of a year, that's a huge difference.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's like we've restructured the entire day, with the whole team also on that exact same schedule. Right? And it's not just me, it's not just my world. I mean, business partners, Cole, and everybody else, everybody who does that morning block of fitness, that's why I've been pushing it this whole time. And if you look at anybody in the military, anybody in the fire department, anybody in special operations, the military in general, everybody's day always starts with fitness. When you're in boot camp, you wake up, you do a workout, and then you eat.

DJ Shipley: When you go into BUD/S, you wake up, you work out essentially all day long, and go to sleep. It's the same thing. When you get to the SEAL team, you do the same thing. Everybody wakes up, everybody does fitness, the very first thing, and then we start our day. It's been really successful. Why would I ever break that?

DJ Shipley: When you see guys, when they transition out, they get away from it. They gain a bunch of weight. They start drinking. "You working out five days a week?" "No." "Why? You've been doing it since you were 17 years old. Why would you break it now? Why?"

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, why do you think that, that happens?

DJ Shipley: I think guys use excuses, injuries, limitations, and lack of motivation. Like, 'Oh, there's no reason for me to be in shape.' Longevity of life. Everybody says, "Oh, I'd take a bullet for my kids." You won't lose 40 pounds for them. You won't prolong life. If you think you're a real asset to your family, why wouldn't you try to maximize that time? So I look at them now. It doesn't take a whole lot. Like, you don't have to be David Goggins. You don't have to run 100 miles a day. You can wake up and do a 20-minute walk every single day, and you'll be better off for it.

DJ Shipley: You could grab a set of kettlebells. Thirty minutes in your garage. That is something every single day that makes you exponentially better, just through the repetition of being there, being present, being a little selfish right now so you can be selfish later. So for me, if I don't get that workout in, and everybody's got stuff going on, I do too. If I don't get that block of fitness in, I will think about that all day long. I'll think about it for weeks.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: We go back, the next time we hit that muscle group, I don't get the same numbers I thought I would. Well, that's because I took Monday off. I'm never going to put myself in that position. I don't want to have to have that excuse, so I set the foundation, I lay it down, I stamp it on a piece of paper. That's what I'm doing. I'm not compromising on it. And it's been great for us.

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome. I mean, as somebody who got into resistance training in his teens and running. I confess, over the years, I felt some guilt around working out, because in my community of scientists, now I have a much broader community. You know, you go to meetings. Everyone's sitting all day and eating bad food, and then it was happy hour. I was never much of a drinker, but I would participate a bit until eventually I just stopped drinking entirely.

Andrew Huberman: And occasionally I would sneak off during some of the, I'll just be honest, the weak talks. I was like, 'I've seen this person speak before. I'm going to get a workout in.' And only once did I ever run into a colleague in the gym at one of these places, and we both were like, it was like getting caught doing something bad.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But then the years went by, and I saw my colleagues start to die. I saw my colleagues start to get sick. I saw my colleagues start to resemble melted candles. And these were people that had a lot of robustness, and they also had a lot to offer, and families and friends. And so, I think nowadays people think about physical fitness a little bit differently. They understand it's an investment, and therefore, it's beneficial to the people around you.

Andrew Huberman: But I still see a lot of people kind of couch it, especially with respect to anything that relates to muscle, as kind of selfish and narcissistic, and this kind of thing. And I think it's so important that people understand the mental health benefits, but also the benefits that it can bring to the people in your life. And not just longevity, but just the person that it brings. You really understand yourself. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking about, you know, the oracle, "Know thyself." It's like so important.

Andrew Huberman: If you don't get that workout, you're going to have to force out being the best husband, the best dad, the best teammate. And if you do get that workout, they still get that best dad, everything, but it's that much more genuine, and it probably is in abundance.

DJ Shipley: One of the things that nobody ever talks about is your body awareness. When you do fitness for a long time, 50 years old, you've been doing fitness for a very long time, you are so in tune with that vessel that when something does pop up, you identify it right away.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: When you don't, you're like, "Um, my back kind of hurts." "Where?" "Uh..." You don't know. I'm in tune with that thing so well that when I walk into a doctor, I'm like, "Take a needle three inches down, rotate it over 45 degrees, and that's where it is." I'm like, "Okay, this is it."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I'm so in tune with it. So when anything pops up, I can diagnose it. I can walk in and give them actual feedback on what's happening. I'm not just sitting on the couch all day long just... "Like, uh, my neck kind of hurts." "No, I know exactly what it is." I'm doing a full diagnostic approach the entire day.

DJ Shipley: And that's why I've got Vernon. He's the best strength coach in the world, and if I didn't have that guy, I would be... I mean, he's brought me back from the dead more times than I can count. But it's five days a week. He's in there every day. So if I walk in and I've got a slight limp on my left side, he's like, "Hey, my man, come over here. What is that?" And I was like, "Oh, nothing." He said, "Bruised heel?" "Yeah, how'd you know it was a bruised heel?" He's like, "I watched that broad jump on Friday. Like you landed a little funky. I wanted to see if it was going to mess with you."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: He IDed it. I IDed it. I just wasn't going to say anything. "Okay, what are you going to do about it?" Right?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Be proact- instead of reactive.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But that's because you're chipping away, and you know, you understand yourself so well because you are constantly in tune with your body, and people just forget about it. Like, "Why aren't you sleeping?" "Well, I had caffeine at 4:00." Oh, I'm accountable for everything I put in my body and then everything that comes out of me. The gym's just one of the methods that really ties them all together for me.

Andrew Huberman: The body awareness piece, I think, is something that we should also underscore a bit.   I think one thing that happens if people don't develop body awareness is that they don't learn the difference between something that hurts and an injury. A few years ago, right before going on Cam Hanes' podcast where you carry that rock... I was about to say he makes you carry the rock, but you don't have to. You carry the rock up. The thing's heavy. It's 72 pounds.

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Slippery. It's muddy. It's 1,000 feet of elevation. And people do it, right? You can do it. But I'd popped a hamstring on the hamstring curl machine a couple of days before.

DJ Shipley: Oh.

Andrew Huberman: But I didn't pop pop it. It didn't unravel up the tendon. So I was like, "I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to..." Because that's going to create its own thing. I was like, "I'm hurt. It hurt, but I'm not injured." And knowing that line is really important, because if you are injured, it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to carry that rock up that hill, right? If you end up out for six months, potentially, or four months... I had, years ago, a back pain, kind of sciatica thing, and I couldn't stand up. Actually, it was online. It was Instagram. And I have no business affiliation to this kid, but there was a... I think he's a chiropractor. He has this channel called RehabFix. And he convinced me that what I need to do is some updog things. It looks like you're kind of humping the floor.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Your pelvis is down and you're pushing up and you're... Repeat those as kind of like lizard push-ups, you know?

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And then against the wall if you can't actually do that from the floor. Within three days, it resolved itself.

DJ Shipley: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And I was thinking about pain meds, which I don't like to take. In fact, I avoid them entirely. I was thinking, "Well, am I going to have to have surgery?" I mean, I could not stand up. I couldn't move. I couldn't do it. And I realized then, I was like, "Okay, the line between hurt and truly injured is often kind of blurry, and you need to be able to work through that space." And you think about this and it... Through one lens and it sounds like a selfish thing, "Oh, it's all about being able to work out more." If you think about it through another lens, people who think they're injured or who are in pain and don't resolve that, are very difficult to be around, very difficult. I've been that person. It's just everything grates on you.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And male, female, young, or old, people now, they'll talk about their neck, or they can't sleep right. And I think being able to suck stuff up is really great. It's also important to know when you have a real issue. And so the body awareness thing, I think, is a gift to one's self. You can avoid a lot of costs, a lot of unnecessary medical interventions. You can know when it's time to take action with proper medical intervention. But also, it really allows you to be in life with people without being the person that's always complaining about stuff or is just difficult. I think a lot of people who are difficult are in pain, and they don't know how to resolve that pain.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And they think they have a problem with pain, so then they take pain medication, and that's a whole cycle. So, I just wanted to underscore kind of where we're headed here, it seems, again and again, is with what seems selfish is actually one of the most selfless things you can do. Let's talk about what you call "Unracking at 07:00."

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Tier one operator. Former tier one operator. The lingo. So that... I'm guessing, is that unracking the weight? That's when the workout starts.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Phone is off?

DJ Shipley: Phone's on because we run an app on it.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: Because we have Vernon Griffith.

Andrew Huberman: But you're not looking at text messages?

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: And you're not shooting selfies of your calves and biceps?

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: Right. I point that out in semi-jest because I always joke that the first rep of every set now seems to be guys in the gym taking pictures of themselves.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: The last rep of every set seems to be guys taking pictures of themselves. So 07:00, so what's that workout look like? You're doing it five days a week. I know it's going to be different for different people, but you have this program that I really want to explore with you today about how to measure progress, and set standards, and meet new standards, higher standards. What does that workout look like for you?

DJ Shipley: So I linked up with Vernon right when I was getting medically retired around 2019. I came back from a gnarly shoulder injury. I blew it. I had a dislocation. It came through my armpit, shredded out everything. And I went from about 215 to about 180 pounds. Got stuck in a rehab clinic in Bethesda, Maryland for 31 days in-patient, and I came out like death warmed over. Worst I've ever been in my life. Worst my mental health has ever been. I did not want to play the game anymore. And Navy SEAL Foundation hooked you up with this physical rehabilitation program in Virginia Beach ran by a former SEAL, and Vernon was the lead strength conditioning coach. And he was my coach. And we walked in. We did full-body assessments. And what's interesting about him is he took all your limitations and developed concepts and movements to establish confidence in that area.

DJ Shipley: So when I came back, day one he's like, "Okay, let's try to hang from the bar." I looked right at him, "No." He's like, "What?" "No, I'm not hanging from that bar. I'm done. I've done more pull-ups than most people on the planet. My pull-up days are done, man. I'm not doing it again." He goes, "You gotta trust me." I was like, "Well, it's not going to happen on day one." Slowly but surely, I mean, he's at the point where he's holding my knees. I can't even extend my arm overhead. I'm so-

Andrew Huberman: That's humbling. For a guy that was a tier one operator, that's humbling.

DJ Shipley: I was so bound up by fear that he was going to come... Because that was my first shoulder surgery, and if you've never had one, shoulder surgeries are the worst rehab I've ever had. And I've had a lot of them. The shoulder rehab was brutal, and I didn't want it to pop. And I'd extend, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And he's like, "You just gotta trust me, man. Like, doctor cleared you. The anchors have set. Everything is there, but you cannot go through the rest of your life like this." He's like, "You're not even 40." He's like, "Do you want to go another 40 years without doing a pull-up? You're going to have to trust me." He'd pick me up by the legs. I'd put my arm on there, and he'd slowly but surely start to extend me down until we got full range of motion. And we did that for days and weeks. Then we went to a band. Then we took the band off. "I just want you to hang. Now we're going to focus on going back up." And we built back to... I mean, I can do sets of 25 pull-ups now because then-

Andrew Huberman: You're pulling your weight, which is what right now?

DJ Shipley: I'm like 215.

Andrew Huberman: You're 6'1" and 215?

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And you're doing sets of 20?

DJ Shipley: Yeah, 20, 25.

Andrew Huberman: Non-kip pull-up?

DJ Shipley: Yep. And it's all bouncing back from him, but the whole program he did... Because I'm not a unicorn by any means, but I've had all the injuries that everybody else has had. I've had double hip surgery, I've had double shoulder surgery, I've had my abdomen blown through a couple of times. I've had them all. I've had thumbs, I've had to rebuild my own structure-

Andrew Huberman: Blown through, blown through, boom.

DJ Shipley: I mean, just everything.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: When I got electrocuted, it blew out everything and we had to rebuild that entire thing.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: So all the guys that are in this process, if you're a SWAT team, a fireman on a SEAL team, anybody in between, we've all got injuries that become limitations, and we just avoid them. You can't avoid them forever, and this program is designed to get you back in shape. And it grows with you as you go, so every single week you're chasing numbers from the week before and pushing. On the days you don't have it, on the days you wake up and you're bound up just lacking motivation, we're going in with 100% of what we have to offer. That might be 75%. I'm giving 100% of the 75% I have today. But Monday's a pull day from the floor, usually trap bar deadlifts, and we do those because of all the injuries. I've got a really long torso. It puts my back at a weird precarious situation, so we do trap bar deadlifts. We do those, a lot of pull-up work, a lot of grip work, a lot of core stability stuff.

DJ Shipley: Tuesday's a press day, heavy upper body, bench, incline, that kind of stuff. Wednesday's an upper body, lower body disassociation. So we get the upper body moving in one direction, the lower body moving the other. A lot of core-

Andrew Huberman: You got any example of that?

DJ Shipley: We'll do a lot of banded work. We'll drop down to a knee, like almost in a shooting position, and we'll do cross body pulls with bands, resistance training, but just-

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So rotational stuff and sort of anti-rotation stuff?

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Yep. Okay.

DJ Shipley: On that day, we'll do plyo stuff, box jumps, height, distance, and broad jump, that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Farmer's carry, walks, and all the stuff, just trying to connect all the dots.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Thursday is the most brutal leg day you've ever had, and it's amazing. We got a belt squat machine. So anybody who walks in, regardless of the injuries and limitations you have, we have equipment to accommodate that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. And when you say brutal leg day...

DJ Shipley: It just-

Andrew Huberman: I have a belt squat. I love that thing. I love throwing a lot of weight on that thing. It's nice, it doesn't load the spine up, but yeah, I like to think it's brutal.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Can you describe? Are you talking about like an hour and a half, two hours of low weight-

DJ Shipley: It's usually from seven to nine.

DJ Shipley: High weight, pretty high repetitions.

Andrew Huberman: So high weight, high repetitions?

DJ Shipley: Trying to.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Always trying to push, but a lot of single leg movements, Bulgarian split squats.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: A lot of lunges, a lot of lunges with heavy weight.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: 70 pounds in each hand, for me, that's a lot of weight.

Andrew Huberman: So not calf raises, leg curls.

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But some days we'll do a feel-good day.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Like some days we'll come in, he'll take a pulse of the whole room, and he'll go...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: We're all going to hit the same muscle groups. We're just going to do it more traditional. So we're going to do hamstring curls, leg extensions.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: We're going to do belt squats, we're going to do pulsing lunges, really just pump the blood flow, and just chase a really good pump. Everybody loves doing that. And Fridays are really... It's a feel-good day. It's an arm day. We'll do some shoulders, some accessory work, and then we add in sprints in between, probably two to three days a week.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: 200 meter repeats, 300 meter repeats.

Andrew Huberman: Done where in the workout? In between sets?

DJ Shipley: At the end.

Andrew Huberman: At the end?

DJ Shipley: Yeah. We always save it at the end, and we always did that with military, too.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It always ends with a run. And I've tried every combination, doing sprints, pre and post, and it really just zaps the workout for me.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, Pavel Tsatsouline, you know, the Pavel Tsatsouline sat in that chair right where you're at now and said, if your goal is hypertrophy and you're going to come into a pumping workout, doesn't really matter if you do cardio first or last, but if you're serious about strength and performance and form, then do your cardio after, if at all. Because a lot of times those kettlebell workouts or some of these leg workouts, they're not, "cardio", but they definitely get heart rate up in a serious way.

DJ Shipley: So on Wednesday, if we're doing a sprint workout, it might be 10 by 40, 50 meter sprints.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Right? Nothing crazy. We'll do that at the very beginning, get the fast twitch muscle fibers going, and then we'll do whatever the normal Wednesday workout is.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And then we go to the flat range every Wednesday.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So we train. We bring him out too, so all the stance, the grip, the presentation, everything we talk about in a tactical setting, he's there with us. So when I talk about flexing your right glute to add stability to a stable shooting platform, he's there driving home, "This is why it's important. Think big toe down, drive your heel down." So I mean, he's as much of a coach as I am on the flat range, but he can connect the dots so well, and that's why I love him, is he's not going to let you take that limitation and then live it forever.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You don't want to be like that, and it doesn't help that he's bigger, stronger, faster than everybody else. So you've always got a good lifting buddy to kind of chase.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: He always pushes you. But he's so good at navigating human terrain, because some days I'll walk in and whatever's happened over the week, he'll see me in the morning, he'll look at me like, "How we holding up?" I'm like, "100%." "Yeah, you ain't... Come over here. What's going on?" I'll talk to him, he's like, "We'll shake it all out. We've got two hours here, just us, nothing else matters. Let's just focus on this." And I find myself pacing a lot, so in between sets I'll block out everything else. I'm not thinking about social, I'm not thinking about my wife, not thinking about the business. I'm thinking about putting myself in the best mental spot to pull that off the floor at 100% with no distractions. And I think that's why I like it so much, because it allows me to isolate my thoughts. Nothing else matters. You don't matter. This doesn't matter, just that movement. Let me get through that to the best of my ability. Set it down, recock, walk around, get ready for the next one. Here we go.

DJ Shipley: Eight reps, I'm going to put so much intent behind this pull that if I get eight or 12, it doesn't matter. Every single one is all out.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And Dorian Yates talks about it. Intensity is what really drives him.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

DJ Shipley: I really try to drive intent behind everything I do now. And yeah, he's a huge...

DJ Shipley: Man, I can't tell you how many times he's brought me back, I mean, the worst injuries you can imagine. And he's there every single time, and I think that's why so many people get on with it, because they see the injuries you've gone through and it's like, "Well, you can still perform at a high level." "Only because I'm..." I don't want to say I'm even ego-driven. I've been so ingrained in the sitting with routine that it doesn't matter what injuries I've had. I mean, I come out and... We've got pictures of me in there in double slings. Like when I got electrocuted, double slings. I can't even tie my shoes; he's tying my shoes. Like he's putting the belt squat on me. I'm squatting down, he's clipping it in, he's unracking it, the entire thing. He's my guy.

Andrew Huberman: Tell us his first and last name.

DJ Shipley: Vernon Griffith.

Andrew Huberman: And you met him when you were injured, right?

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And he's a former operator as well?

DJ Shipley: He's not. So his business partner was a former operator. He was actually in the Air Force.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And transitioned out, got his strength and conditioning, all his quals.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And he's got such an interesting look to mobility, impact... And the high-level athletes that come through him, and that's really what it is. He gets big guys tricked into doing mobility and liking it because nobody wants to do mobility.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's not a sexy thing to do. We get first round draft picks that are pouring through that gym all week long. And you see them because it's the truth. We're trying to keep you at a super high level as long as humanly possible. The average guy that plays in the NFL, what, three years?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But I'm trying to keep you in there for 12. How are we going to do it? You have to maintain that vessel at a super high level because all these young kids are trying to knock you off the team, and then the reality of the sport is trying to knock you off the team as well. So we got to keep you really, really mobile and healthy. And I've never seen anybody that can connect dots better than that guy. He's an absolute lifesaver.

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Andrew Huberman: The way you describe him and your interactions with him, it almost takes on a sort of a mythical-like quality. I mean, like we could be talking about a movie, but this is real. And when we'll talk about just how real it is, where some very real things have happened to you by virtue of the high-risk, high-consequence career that you undertook.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But when you hear about this person who's able to bring back a high performer and then get him to exceed his previous notions of what he could do under conditions of duress and hopelessness, this is real life though. This is not Star Wars. This is real life. And so without ever having met him, I can feel the respect, and the admiration, and the gratitude you have for him. And I'm sure everyone else can, too. This is the stuff of mythology, but it's real. So, here's what I know about you. You live in Virginia Beach.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: At one point you were interested in skateboarding and partook in skateboarding. At some point you decided to become a Navy SEAL. At some point you got electrocuted.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Fill in the blanks for us.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, man. I was born in San Diego, California. My dad was a SEAL. My mom was in the Navy. So when my dad graduated, my mom was nine months pregnant with me. So his whole first four years at the West Coast SEAL Teams, I was one of the only kids there. So kind of grew up in the culture, really ingrained into it. My first bottle-

Andrew Huberman: On Coronado?

DJ Shipley: Yep. It's my first bottle, I'm wearing a SEAL Team One onesie.

Andrew Huberman: You literally were raised on Coronado.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. So I did that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: We moved to the East Coast. He got transitioned over to the East Coast. I grew up the rest of my time there, fell in love with skateboarding. That's all I wanted to do; I wanted to go pro. Got into a fight with the old man around 15 years old, something like that, and he signed me up for summer school to graduate early. So I graduated at 17, hit delayed entry program, joined the Navy a month later.

Andrew Huberman: Was that a contentious interaction?

DJ Shipley: Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Skateboarding was clearly not the right career for you. I mean, I'm sure you would have done exceedingly well there, but having grown up a bit in that culture and also knowing a bit about the culture, you eventually decided on...

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It's hard to say which one is the better career choice. One is definitely more life-threatening in many ways. But you just said, "Okay, like, you're a Navy SEAL, you want me to be a Navy SEAL, so I'm going to hang it up?"

DJ Shipley: It was always in the back of your mind, like that was always what you thought you were going to do.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But at 15 years old, in your mind, you can do them both. You're like, "Oh, I can be a professional skateboarder, and then I can be a Navy SEAL later." You don't realize what it actually takes to do it even though you grew up in the culture.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So when that happened, the other towers had just fell, I was 17 years old, delayed entry program, straight out to Coronado, got through SEAL training, came back to the East Coast where I've been essentially my whole life, and, yeah, joined the Navy in 2002 and I got medically retired in 2019, right around 17 years.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I think it was 16 years and 10 months, or something like that.

Andrew Huberman: Can I ask you about BUD/S? A lot of people have heard of BUD/S, and they understand that it has a hell week with minimal, if any, sleep, maybe an hour or two tops, but probably not even that.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: How hard was BUD/S relative to other things that you did in the teams? I've heard people say it was the hardest thing they ever did. I've heard some people say it was extremely hard, but not nearly as difficult as some aspect of, like, guys who hate the jungle and humidity are like, "That was worse."

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And you never know if people are joking around. Did you learn a lot in BUD/S about yourself?

DJ Shipley: If you can make it through BUD/S, you can do anything. It is such a brutal program, and I just... A hell week just secured... And I saw a bunch of the guys, took them out to dinner the other night, and I was explaining to a group of civilians that were out there with them, like their parents, like, "You guys all see it. Every single person does that pipeline." It's not just BUD/S. It's the Q course for Green Berets, it's RIP for the Rangers, MARSOC selection. Every single kid that's doing that selection program is the biggest deal in his hometown, the biggest thing in his high school. Everybody knows he's going, and the amount of external pressure that's riding on that kid, unless you've done it, you have no idea. You just don't. It's like playing D1 college ball. Everyone in your family is expecting you to be a pro. They're expecting you to be in the NFL. And if you don't get drafted, it's like, "Oh my God." It's so much pressure on you, and it's the same way.

Andrew Huberman: And it's self-selection because people quit.

DJ Shipley: It is.

Andrew Huberman: In general, they're not asked to leave, although that can happen.

DJ Shipley: Exactly.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: So if somebody doesn't make it through BUD/S, it means they quit.

DJ Shipley: Yep. Pretty much. And it's a lot of pressure, right? The GWOT just kicking off, all the instructors were coming back from Afghanistan, and they were larger than life. I mean, you really looked up to them. And I was just very fortunate that I grew up in the culture, and I knew a lot of the guys going in, so I knew what the in-state was. Most of these kids are from Biloxi, Mississippi. You've never even seen a Navy SEAL in real life until you showed up here. I grew up with one. All my family friends were SEALs. We didn't have a single civilian friend growing up. The only thing I'd been around were commandos, so...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I felt really natural around that environment, but I knew it was going to suck. I just knew it was.

Andrew Huberman: Did your dad have you running with him and doing push-ups and things like that at home?

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: Or was it mow the lawn and then go skateboarding, you know?

DJ Shipley: Mow the lawn and go skateboarding and then as we transitioned, we got closer, it was turn it on, download the Stew Smith "Guide to Navy SEAL" prep, and did that like everybody else did.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And it's a phenomenal program for anybody who's trying to go. But I was so young, I was so immature, didn't have a cellphone, didn't have a car. I lived on the barracks and the only thing you had to do was get through the program. But what I will say, is the 17-year-old me that showed up in 2002, if I would try to be a Navy SEAL in 2025, they wouldn't even take me. My performance scores, like you have to pass a screen test, push-ups, pull-ups, run, swim, the whole thing. Your scores now have to be so competitive, they wouldn't have even taken me.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, so the standards have changed?

DJ Shipley: The standards are the same, but the people going through the program are so better prepared, they wouldn't even take you. So if you're not 120 push-ups, 120... They don't even look at you. Like for me, I basically barely scratched through. I was a strong swimmer, but technique wasn't my thing. And until you take the test, you don't realize how hard it is, and I got through it, and I went on to BUD/S and I was successful, but I was by no means a star athlete. And you have guys, you know, Coleman Ruiz, Naval Academy. They are freaks. They're phenoms. They are professional athletes. And there you are, 6'1", 145 pounds, pot-smoking skateboarder. We are not on the same level. But mentally, you couldn't mess with me. I didn't care.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Like we're getting surf tortured, and you'd watch these guys who were just these studs get up and quit, and you're like, "It's not going to stop." And I felt like I always had the inside scoop, like, "If you think this is going to end, it's not." My dad did a lot of diving. I was like, "I've seen the conditions; they dive in breaking through the ice. Like, it is only going to get worse, dude. If this phases you, this is not the program for you." And I was right. If that phases you, the SEAL Team's going to chew you alive. So not everybody should make it through that program. I was just fortunate enough that... Just good enough to get by, and maturity came later, but BUD/S was definitely not the hardest thing I've ever had to do. At the time, it was. And when you get through it and you see all the... I mean, you start with 200 and something people, you graduate less than 20. It's 200 of the most physically capable people of that year in the United States Navy, and they couldn't make it.

Andrew Huberman: Did any of the people that not made it through as well as who made it through surprise you? For not making it through or making it through?

DJ Shipley: Not making it through, for sure. I mean, all the guys that... You've been around them.

Andrew Huberman: The Captain Americas. Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Navy SEALs have a certain look. They have a certain mystique, a certain aura, and they do in training too.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's not like you just develop that. You've had it your whole life. And there were definitely guys you'd look at that looked like Dolph Lundgren from "Rocky 4." You'd look at him, you're like, "Oh, that dude is definitely gonna make it." He's gone in 20 minutes. You're like, "How? He passed everything." They're like, "He didn't like that cold water." Like, "Okay." And then you see another guy who was in worse shape than me, barely squeaked by everything, and he is the hardest dude you ever met in your life. Nothing phases him. Every run, every swim, just miserable, he doesn't care. He-

Andrew Huberman: You just kind of... It sounds like you have to not mind being miserable.

DJ Shipley: You have to get used to it. You have to embrace it. It's going to suck.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's supposed to. And you've just got to tell yourself, "It's worth the price of admission. It's gonna be miserable. You bought the ticket, you're gonna get the whole show, and it's totally worth it. But you've got to be there at the end."

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned Coleman Ruiz, who's been a guest on this podcast, is a good friend of mine, and yours as well, and you worked with him. And I'm probably going to get this a little bit wrong, but I think once he said... Because I think he was an instructor at BUD/S also for a short while.

DJ Shipley: I think he was.

Andrew Huberman: And I think he said, "When you look at the guys that make it through BUD/S, nine times out of ten, they've had one or at least one of the following three things: either spent some serious time in detention in high school, played a varsity sport in high school, divorced parents." And that raises a whole bunch of other questions about friction, and kind of, for lack of a better way to put it, some internal sense of like, "F you, I'm going to push through this anyway," or just, "F you," to something.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So when you're going... So let's assume that Coleman, given the fact that he's not a scientist, he was a former operator, so he knows. Do you think that there were moments, or many moments where it was you against them? Like, you and your teammates, because you're on a boat crew or whatever with your teammates, you're working as a team and learning how to do that. It's not just about you; it's about the group. And it's about you, and it's about the expectation. But how many different bins of motivation do you have to access to get through BUD/S? And is, "F you," to the instructors or whoever, to the cold water, is that a critical bin?

DJ Shipley: It is and it isn't. Because sometimes you get caught up in the moment, you don't even think about it, you just want to finish that evolution.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So when you're doing a four-mile timed run... That was one of the big things, is you have to do a four-mile timed run. It's got to be, I think, a seven-minute mile or less. And nowhere in there does it say the condition of the beach matters. So if it's high tide, low tide, you have to run it on the berm and soft sand. The time standard's a time standard.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And talk to anybody. At any point in that training, you are going to hit a wall where you think your heart's going to stop. Like, "If I take one more step, I'll die right here."

Andrew Huberman: Because your heart rate's so high.

DJ Shipley: And you're like, "I can't do it." And at some point, you just don't care. You're like, "I'd rather fall stone-cold dead in front of all of them and die right here than I would failing or quitting."

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, at least you don't have to go home head hanging in shame.

DJ Shipley: Exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: And you just push anyway. Sometimes you'll get it, you'll be getting surf tortured by the instructors, and you're just laying on that 60-degree water, just miserable. And I tell this story quite a bit. We had dudes getting up and leaving, mass exits, just... And the biggest, strongest dudes. It's broad daylight. 70 degrees on Coronado Island, the most beautiful day you've ever seen. We're laying there just jackhammering. And you look over and all the West Coast SEAL teams are out to your right. And you can see SEAL Team One out there doing log PT for their morning PT. And you could look down the left and you see the Hotel Del and this little, what I call a seven-year-old with a big pink flamingo, jumping in the water, having the best time of their life. And I'm like, "It's all about your perspective."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Could be a palace or a prison.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: However you want to see it right now. That, they're still doing it.

Andrew Huberman: That's funny.

DJ Shipley: That kid, time of their life, and we're in the exact same water.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Just change your mindset. This is all part of the process, and if you want to wear that shiny gold thing on your chest, you must do this. Just do it. And I remember that was one of the things, like, "You're not going to break me. No matter what you say, I'll die right here in this water. I don't care." And that kind of mindset has really been beneficial throughout the entire process.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Because there are parts of BUD/S and parts of being in special operations where you think it's going to kill you.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And then at a certain point, you just don't care. "If it kills me, it kills me. I don't care." And you get through it. Like, "I'm so terrified of heights. Like, I can't jump out of the back of this airplane." You watch 15 guys go in front of you and you get right to the ramp, and you go, "I don't care." And for whatever reason, they just jump. Like, "What made you jump?" "Everybody else did it. I didn't want to be the guy who said no." Sometimes that performance anxiety, that pressure to perform on demand, it gets you through the hump and it shows you, "If it can be done by a human being, I can do it."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And it just rings true. It's like, "How far can you run?" "As far as I have to." "Well, how fast can you run?" "As fast as I can. Like, if you can run that, I can run it. If you can get up and over that mountain, I can do it too." "How you going to do it?" "One step at a time, brother. Here we go." And it makes you so mentally resilient. And I think that's really the defining factor, is you can make them believe in their mind they can get through anything. Now collectively as a group, now you stack 25 of those true believers together, you can do anything.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And I've seen some dudes do some Herculean feats, and they do it just because they're too afraid to say no. "Can you do that?" "Yep." "You sure?" "If it can be done, I'll do it." I've seen it time and time again. But yeah, I mean, everybody hits those moments in BUD/S where it's just, "I cannot believe I'm doing this right now." But it's magic once you get through it.

Andrew Huberman: It's awesome. I mean, I think setting a threshold for, "If it kills me, it kills me," is, in many contexts, unhealthy, but in that context is, yeah, I guess healthy, adaptive. Let's call it adaptive. I'm not going to decide what's healthy or unhealthy. I'm sure some people are listening to this and they're thinking, "Oh, God, like this is how guys get themselves killed." And indeed, outside of the context of BUD/S, sometimes guys do dumb stuff. I always say there's something about having a Y chromosome that through... You know, I wasn't around tens of thousands of years ago, but I'm guessing the first Homo sapien male who picked up a rock, the first thing he did was hit himself in the head with it and was like, "Ouch."

DJ Shipley: Oh.

Andrew Huberman: Then he hit the guy next to him with it.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And he went, "Ouch." And then they decided to take it and throw it against a wall and see what happens, and on and on, and here we are.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And obviously, those with two X chromosomes took a different path, and we need the collaboration in order to survive as a species, obviously.

DJ Shipley: Right.

Andrew Huberman: But there's something about that, "Let's just see what happens if," and, "If it kills me, it kills me," that actually is a core feature of human evolution that's brought us to some incredible positive places. So clearly BUD/S is one such microenvironment.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So you make it through. And then I realize there are a lot of other iterations. There's jump school, and there are a bunch of other things, and you go off and you start OPing right away?

DJ Shipley: Yeah, I get stationed at SEAL Team 10 in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and we deploy in 2005. The Iraq war had just kicked off, so we... I check in, and it was early '04, and we deployed in... Yeah, we deployed probably seven months later and sent out. Iraq was phenomenal.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Everything you ever wanted it to be, scary, like you don't know anything. The IEDs are really bad, and just being a really young kid, I mean, I was stormtrooping out in Iraq and 19 years old. You forget how young you are at 19.

Andrew Huberman: So you're 19, you're kicking doors down, driving Humvees, blowing stuff up, and seeing friends get blown up.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: If you talk to anybody who was in Iraq, the chances of you not hitting an IED were so rare, and we never hit one. They'd hit the convoy in front of us, the one behind us. We'd get delayed at the gate for two minutes, we'd turn, and boom, they'd go off in front of you. They're just not hitting... They're hitting everybody else but you. And you would tell yourself things like, "Oh, the reason they're not doing it is 'cause we look so aggressive because we have flames and death skulls on the Humvees." It's not that, man. It's just not your time.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You can be the best trained dude in the world and that IED hits you, the lights are over.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And on that deployment, we lost all the guys in Operation Red Wings in Afghanistan. That was the other half of our SEAL team.

Andrew Huberman: That wasn't an IED, that was the-

DJ Shipley: That was a helicopter that got shot down.

Andrew Huberman: Now, I don't know whether or not to call it famous or infamous, forgive me. I'm going to step in it one way or the other. "Lone Survivor."

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Amazing book, I should say.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: I really enjoyed the book. The movie does, I think, a pretty good job of extracting some of the key moments from the book, but more than a movie or a book, it's a true story.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And that's the four guys that got... The three of them got killed on the ground, and then one helicopter blown up attempting to come save them.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: To save the one guy.

DJ Shipley: Save the one guy.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, Marcus.

DJ Shipley: And that was so hard to wrap your head around as a 19-year-old because you've got to think, you know, in my mind, I'd essentially been in the community for 19 years up to that point.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And during my dad's time, it was peacetime the whole time, so you weren't going to funerals all day long. Navy SEALs getting killed was like folklore. It's like, "Oh, it's a bad parachute accident." We had Neil Roberts got killed in the early GWOT in Afghanistan, Robert's Ridge, if you ever heard of that story. That's a gnarly one. Russell [unintelligible] got the Medal of Honor. John Chapman, the Air Force guy, got the Medal of Honor. Gnarly firefight. But outside of that, it wasn't happening very often, and then when all those guys got killed in one shot, it was like a slap of reality. They were the best dudes you've ever seen. Like, unbelievably trained, unbelievable experience, and they're gone in an instant. No goodbye, no fanfare, no holding him like, "Tell my mother..." It's nothing like Hollywood. They're gone.

Andrew Huberman: And that was kept under wraps for a long time before the book and the movie.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: People really didn't know. There wasn't a lot of discussion about SEALs and-

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: Well, yeah.

DJ Shipley: It wasn't in popular culture, and when the book came out, it started to gain steam, and people started to read more about it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But for being inside the SEAL teams, that was your own private 9/11. Every single SEAL cried in an instant, throwing up. Just you cannot believe that just happened. And then for everybody else who's still fighting the war, you have to try to explain to your wife and your family why that's not going to happen to you, and it's a lie. It's not like they did anything wrong. That's just the way it is. Sometimes it just happens.

Andrew Huberman: You were married at this point?

DJ Shipley: I wasn't. Single, thank God.

Andrew Huberman: Intentionally?

DJ Shipley: Intentionally.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. I tried to wait as long as humanly possible and try to do that. Good advice, but, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that job at full-time and trying to be a full-time boyfriend that turns into a fiancé that turns into a husband, turns into a father. It's very hard unless you're able to compartmentalize really, really well. And fortunately for us, that's the thing you're the best at, is I can wall it off so fast and never think about you again. Now when you transition out of the military, that's not really a super power anymore. But in the moment, it served you.

Andrew Huberman: So as more and more guys are getting killed, did you find that getting into action each day, the same way that you describe civilian life now, and getting into action each day, being really adaptive, did you find that that was key to being able to not go down mental traps? And at the same time, I acknowledge that you must have also just been really busy. There's stuff coming at you all the time... I mean, it sounds cold, but just because guys get killed doesn't mean that the oping stops. In fact, it probably picks up even more.

DJ Shipley: You go out the next night. You have to. You've got to keep going, you've got to get back on the horse. Keep on going. The last thing that we wanted is those guys get killed, "Well, let's pull them all back. Let's take, you know, six months to, you know, regroup." No. No. "We gotta go out right now." Same thing with the parachute accident. I told you about the electro-- "I gotta do it right away. If I don't get back on the horse, I'll just build up this dread, and I'll lose my confidence in the whole process. Like, we have to go." And NSW did, everybody did. Full gas, full steam ahead, let's go, and just kept going. We did another one in 2007. If you've seen the stuff with Jason Redman, I talked about my buddy Matty getting shot up. That 2007 deployment was dicey, but it's the same thing-

Andrew Huberman: Two of your close friends.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. And-

Andrew Huberman: Pretty mangled.

DJ Shipley: Oh. Crazy mangled. And you start to find out really, really fast that it doesn't matter how much you train. If your number's called, you're getting pulled. And it's hard to justify because now you have a girlfriend, you have all this stuff, and people are dying, and you have to reassure them why it's not going to happen to you, and you get really good at compartmentalization. Like, I can't control that. The only thing I can control is this. I'm shooting as much as I can, I'm doing as much CQB as I can, I'm jumping as much as I can, I'm around the boys building team camaraderie as much as humanly possible because I can't control anything else. Control the things you can control, building confidence. But reality, when it slaps, it slaps hard and definitely slapped us.

Andrew Huberman: As the public understanding of what the SEALs even were and are started to grow and change, and the movies, the "Lone Survivor" movie, and...

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I actually think, again, they did a good job with the movie. I know the book and the movie were approved by the military, so there was a lot of kind of vetting of the material, but I think it hit powerfully. At the time, I was living in San Diego, so the movie theaters were packed, but that was true everywhere.

DJ Shipley: Hm.

Andrew Huberman: It made a big impact. But then with like the Bin Laden thing, televising the White House watching, I feel like the whole world came to understand that there were these guys called Navy SEALs, and they're doing this really dangerous stuff, taking out bad guys. Was there anything that changed about the job just knowing that it wasn't as vaulted as it once was? I mean, what you're doing is vaulted on a day-to-day basis, but, you know, just this idea, like, this is in movies, and there it is on the cover of CNN. There's Obama and Secretary of Defense watching the op, and people at... Then there's a movie made about it very quickly, and it was all happening. It was weird, in real time and on the movies, and it just...

Andrew Huberman: For a civilian, it was a little bit of a mind bend. I can't even imagine what it was like if that's your job. And so much of being able to perform the job well relies on people not knowing what you're doing and how you do it. What was that like?

DJ Shipley: Terrible. I mean, the very next day you couldn't drive on the compound. Every news channel across America was sitting outside of that thing, and not only are they taking photos of everybody that comes in, they know what you look like. They're looking for guys with long hair, beards, covered in tattoos, driving jacked-up pickup trucks. That's what they're looking for. And now you can't go anywhere. Now they're going out in town to all the bars and restaurants you go to, and they're pulling you aside asking you... It's very uncomfortable. They'll see wives in there with a little trident stick on the back of their car. They'll nail her in the Whole Foods parking lot. "Is your husband a Navy SEAL?" Nobody's ever done this before. It's like mum's the word. Everybody kind of just collapsed on ourselves and really, really tried to hush this thing down, but it made the job very, very difficult. It felt like you were just under a microscope the entire time. And then when Extortion happened, then everybody started that, "It was an inside job." Come on, man.

Andrew Huberman: I know it's probably not something you want to get into, but maybe just explain for people what Extortion 17 was, and why that was so additionally impactful, after what happened with Operation Red Wings?

DJ Shipley: Yeah, I mean, we had Operation Red Wings that happened June 28th, 2005. You had a bunch of really historic things that led up after that. You had the rescue of Captain Phillips in 2009. That was a huge milestone win, like, "Everybody's cool, yeah, yeah, yeah."

Andrew Huberman: And they made a movie.

DJ Shipley: They made a movie, and it's great... But nobody in the Teams is on social media. I didn't watch a YouTube video my entire time in the SEAL Teams. What would I watch a YouTube video for? Nobody knew how bad it was spinning outside of your control.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Nobody. Bin Laden happens... And then August 6th, 2011, we lose an entire troop of guys in Afghanistan. Helo gets shot down, kills them all in an instant, killed 31 total people, and it was like we were reliving June 28th again, but now it's double as bad. And now you truly have the best that have ever suited up. If you look at the experience level they have, most of those guys were pre-9/11 guys, 10, 12 combat rotations... Gone. You'll never replace it. Never. You've never filled that void since that moment. And then you have all these people just hateful rhetorically. "Oh, it was an inside job," and, you know, "They knew too much. They were on the Bin Laden raid so we killed them." Do you know how hard that is to live in Virginia Beach doing that job seeing those wives at Whole Foods wearing a memorial T-shirt knowing you're saying that?

DJ Shipley: Do you know what that does to a family? Do you know what that does to little kids who wake up and they read the comment section? "Mom, was Dad killed?" "Yeah." "Was he killed by the government?" That's what they read because that's what you're saying, and it's not the truth. It's just not. That was an op that went wrong. It's a dangerous job and when you fly in those big gigantic black helicopters and they're slow to land, you can shoot them and that's what happened. And it's as simple as that. It's a dangerous job. Like what are you going to do? But it is very hard to live in Virginia Beach. It is so small. Everywhere you go it's around you. I mean, you're sifting through black T-shirts all day long. Which memorial shirt are you going to wear? It just is. And now you get there, now people are starting to erode that from you, and it really starts to lose your confidence. So for me, now I'm married, I'm in the organization.

DJ Shipley: We had to fill a lot of those guys from other squadrons, and one of my best friends had to go over, and unfortunately, he got killed in December 8th, 2012 on a hostage rescue. Ed Byers got the Medal of Honor for that operation. My buddy got the Navy Cross, and we went to BUD/S together. His name was Nic Cheque. One of the greatest, most pure operators you have ever met. Came from Pennsylvania, big wrestler, always in a gym, always training. He represented what the essence of being a Navy SEAL was, and everyone knew it. When he died, a piece of me died that I've never gotten back. And I'm trying not to cry. The hardest thing I've ever had to do was look at my wife and tell her that it wasn't going to happen to me after he died.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

DJ Shipley: Because he was the true north. So when she looks at me and she goes, "Well, the reason you're away from us, the reason you spend 300 days on the road is because you're perfecting this craft because you say it buys down the risk." What about that? And you can't justify it. You just look at her and you're like... "I just hope it's not my time. I'm just going to try to exhaust all my resources for now to put myself in the best position, surrounded by the best people, to buy down as much risk as humanly possible. If my number is called, it's called." What do you want me to do? And that's where the compartmentalization really took hold. You have to be able to leave Virginia Beach, your wife, your two kids, and completely block them out. I can't run through that door with bullets coming out of it thinking about my wife and kids and how I'm going to orphan them. You can't. I don't have pictures in my room. I'm not trying to FaceTime all the time. I'm trying to separate myself out so I can just do this job. And it makes you  really distant. It makes you not be the person you want to be or the person you used to be because you can't.

Andrew Huberman: Well, you're being the person you need to be in order to eventually be able to go back and become the person you want to be, is what it sounds like to me.

DJ Shipley: And, you know, I say to the guys now, and it'll sound messed up, so forgive me, but I never chased a guy who had a perfect family. There was never a Navy SEAL I ever wanted to emulate who had the picture perfect family, ever. They were all either on their second marriage, bad relationship with their kids because they were so devout at work, and you looked at them like, "That's a master class." It's like watching Tiger Woods drag around his golf bag. Like, that's the best it's ever been, ever. And he has no 50/50. There is no dial for that man. He is living this at 100%, and the moment he retires, I really hope he takes all that energy, all that focus, and becomes a better husband and father. But you can't do it both ways. My mind has come to change now.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But I've never seen it. And I most certainly had no balance. I wasn't even trying to find balance. I was trying to wall them off as much as humanly possible to focus on the task at hand, because any distraction was dangerous. And it's hard to do, but it was necessary at the time.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I don't know any high performers, especially ultra high performers, and especially ultra high performers in high risk, high consequence careers, that don't have some unresolved dark aspect of themselves or their life or something that... I mean, you mentioned Tiger, you know, it's public knowledge he had issues outside of his golf game, and sounds like he's resolved those.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I think he got married again recently, and I think everyone should wish him the best, and them the best.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: It's like, especially in the United States, we hold people up, and we expect perfection from our so-called heroes, historically, as well as ones that are alive. And perfection doesn't exist, right?

DJ Shipley: Right.

Andrew Huberman: Because so much of what's required from high performance is total focus, total compartmentalization, and that being a human being is a lot more complicated than that. It's something, I think, to keep in mind. I also just want to just briefly double-click on this thing about comments. You know, I'm not going to tell people to stop saying mean stuff about me if they want to, or mean stuff about somebody. They're going to do it anyway. It's not the issue. But when it comes to kids reading about their dead parents, their dead dads in this case, and last week we had a public assassination. It was a dead dad. And people making up theories, and coming up with ideas that they somehow know things that other people don't know.

Andrew Huberman: And sometimes these people have a professional background in politics, or in the military, or in law enforcement, and it adds additional weight to these theories. But the repercussions on the kids and family and the legacy is, it's really bad.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: It's really bad. It's a shame there isn't a thicker filter. I'm all for free speech, 100% for free speech, but there's a lot of damage done with those thumb clicks that I don't think people can really comprehend. So I'm glad you pointed that out.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, I mean, just imagine it. Like you're a 14-year-old kid and you've grown up worshiping your father, and he gets killed in Afghanistan, and you see a post about him. You start to read down like, "He was killed by his government, by this and this." "Mom? Mom?" It raises doubt.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And then that little seed of doubt is going to be with him forever. It takes the entire collective to be like, "Listen to me. They've never even met a Navy SEAL team. That's some kid in the middle of nowhere who's typing in his mother's basement who's just writing some hateful stuff. It's not real." It's hard to block it out when there's 500 of them.

Andrew Huberman: Or guys that were in the military that didn't make it through selection, they're pissed.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Or have some resentment for some guy that was jacked in high school who said something and they didn't get the date, or...

DJ Shipley: Yep, this guy stole your girlfriend.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's like the ego and resent are a bitter combination.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: It can last a lifetime. Negative comments many times are irrelevant, but in this context,   have a potential lasting, very corrosive aspect.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

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Andrew Huberman: So you're oping. Guys are dying, you now have a family.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And it's in your family lineage to do this job. I'm curious, was the fact that your dad was a team guide, did that feel like pressure, or did it feel like buoyancy? Or neither?

DJ Shipley: It felt normal.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Did you feel like you had to outdo him in the... I would ask that of anyone, military or not. There's this notion... Well, let me just briefly back up. A friend recently, we were talking about kids and family and building family, and he said, "You don't want a son, you got daughters." He has all daughters. And I go, "No, you know, I think I'd like, you know, one of each, but who cares? I'd have daughters, I'd have sons, you know, I don't care." And he said, "No, 'cause if you have a son, he's gonna try and be better than you, and then you're gonna be in conflict." And I almost said, "No," and then I was like, "My dad's a scientist."

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: And so I was like, there's a point in your life where you go, "Can I fill those shoes? Can I exceed those shoes?" It's natural human son-to-father behavior, I think.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Right? And so was there ever a moment where you're like, "I gotta exceed," or was it irrelevant?

DJ Shipley: I think it was irrelevant, but just because of the timing you came in, you know, he spent his entire time at peacetime.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I did nothing but combat the entire time.

Andrew Huberman: Yep.

DJ Shipley: A lot of deployments back and back, never took a shore duty station. Just by that amount of experience, you already surpassed it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It doesn't need to be said.

Andrew Huberman: Why not leave? One of your closest mentors and friends gets killed.

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, the retirement plan, I'm guessing, is pretty good, but it's not that awesome.

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: That's a plug for the military to increase the retirement salaries, and...

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: You get some medical care, right? Some things come to your family for staying in 20 years, I think it is. But did the thought ever cross your mind like, "Hey, guys are dropping off and you're right in the center of it," maybe leave?

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: Not for a moment?

DJ Shipley: No.

Andrew Huberman: I should have known that wasn't going to be the answer.

DJ Shipley: At that time, it's so different because a lot of people think about special operations in the Global War on Terror is the Marines pushing through Fallujah. Broad daylight, just getting smashed. Those are the bravest dudes that served during the GWOT.

Andrew Huberman: The Marines.

DJ Shipley: There is nothing more impressive than a 19-year-old Marine and the things they'll do. Like, they just are. They're heroes of mine. My experience in a GWOT was very different. It's always at night, it's always select targets. It's not like they're like, "Hey, you and your team are going to go raid this village." No, we're going for a very, very specific person. And then when you look at it, Hemingway said it best, "Once you've hunted our men long enough and liked it, you'll never care for anything else thereafter." There is nothing like hunting a human being who's hunting you. Nothing. And you are so afraid you're going to miss it, so that's why you hide injuries, you don't get surgery. You do everything you can to put yourself in position to be on the op, to not miss the deployment.

DJ Shipley: And I think that's what it is in the essence is, you know, you have all the intel folks and all the technology that are giving you this one thing, and you just stare at them. "I know everything about you. Where you live, your secondary house, everybody you talk to, you're right-handed, left-handed, how many windows, how many doors, the inward opening, outward openings, are there storm doors? What's the windows made... I know everything about you, and then we know exactly when we're going to go get you. We know you're bad, and we know everything you've done. I know everything you've said on that phone for the last six months. I know everything there is to know about you, and we are coming to get you." And when you're successful, it becomes addictive, and you just keep chasing that feeling like, "I am pulling these people off the earth, and it makes a difference. I'm not just carpet bombing anything. Like, that one singular dude has done all of this. We have to remove him. Let's go." And it makes you feel like you're important.

DJ Shipley: It makes you feel like people actually need you, and you chase it for as long as possible. My buddy Jimmy Hatch wrote a book called "Chasing a Dragon," and that's what it's like. You chase them long enough, you'll find them, and you don't want to jump off that train. You're so afraid, and the Teams and the military does a really good job of painting a narrative that, "If you leave this, your life is over. There's nothing that's going to surpass this. The SEAL teams are the only thing you know how to do, and it's the only thing you'll ever feel at home." And it's the truth. You get guys to get out and they go work at Goldman Sachs, and they do this, and they do that. If you really get a couple beers in them and you sit down, they're miserable. They miss it. Even all the stuff you didn't like, the things you hated about the military and the people you hated working for, at the end of the... You don't remember any of that. You only remember the good times.

DJ Shipley: And because you had the entire time at war, the whole aspect, the whole career was just amazing. You know, standing on the shoulders of giants. I've got to work with people that are the greatest thing you'll never get to see. There are 12 people on the planet that were there that saw that thing, and we won't even address it because it's not cool if you address it. Like, "I cannot believe you just pulled that off. That's the most impressive thing I've ever seen in my life, and you don't even talk about it." The regular people never get to see the level of detail that goes into doing that job. They see it on a flat range shoot or whatever, and they're like, "Oh, I can do that." Bet you can't jump out of 35,000 feet at night into a place you've never seen, and then do it. Bet you can't do that. Do you know how hard it is to put yourself in a position to do that operation? They have no idea, like-

Andrew Huberman: Well, and they're shooting back at you.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: There's that piece.

DJ Shipley: You have a two-way range.

Andrew Huberman: The targets on a flat range don't shoot back.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

DJ Shipley: This is a two-way range, this isn't airsoft, this is not "Call of Duty." Like, those are real people, and that dude has five kids, and he's going through that threshold regardless of what's coming at him without a second thought. It's amazing to see. And you know, I said to a group of guys the other day, when the tower fell, I've never felt more patriotic in my life. In those moments, you never think about the flag. You never think about the American people, you never think about that. You think you do it for the country. You really do it, and you stay doing it for the culture. The culture of the SEAL teams was worth every ounce you had to pay for it. And every other group will tell you the exact same thing. The culture's what keeps you there. You're so afraid to leave it because you know you're never going to find it anywhere else. And I was the same way. I mean, when me and my old lady were going through our worst moments I told her, it's like, "If you don't like the train, jump. I'm not stopping for you. I'm not."

DJ Shipley: And that's why I was really concerned when we first got together, because she was married to Danny Dietz, who was on Operation Red Wings, on the ground. Her dad was a SEAL. We're embedded in this thing.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, wow. So you guys both came up in it? Wow.

DJ Shipley: Oh, yeah, man. We're embedded in this, and I met her three years after Danny passed. I didn't know Danny, I didn't know her. Mutual friends, we connected around 2008, '9. And I told her when we first... I fell in love with her instantly, and it scared me.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Because I was getting ready to screen and try to go to the tier one command, and the pace was so fast and I was so worried that she'd look at me one day and go, "I can't do this again." And I wasn't going to leave it for her, and I told her that. It's like, "Don't ever ask me to leave, because I won't. If you don't want to do this, I get it. Like, we can be best friends, we can do whatever, but I'm not leaving this for you." And that was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. And for whatever reason, she's a unicorn. She has been the quintessential team wife, above and beyond. Every deployment, full steam ahead. Hot water heater blows up, tree falls through the minivan, she doesn't even tell me, she just solves it. She's amazing.

DJ Shipley: And I still blocked her out like I did everything else because I still thought that my love for her was a distraction. And like, those are the times I look back on and I regret. But in the moment, I don't think I'd change it. I don't think I could. I don't think I could do that job at the level that was required to do it, and have that love hanging around my neck. I couldn't do it. It all ended up working out in the wash, but it's hard, man. It's hard to sit there and just wait for your number to get called and just hope it doesn't. Because I mean, the best dudes in the world are getting killed. And you can't just... It's not lack of training, it's not lack of funding, it's not lack of experience, it's not lack of commitment. What is it? It's a dangerous job, man. That's what it is. It's a super dangerous job, and people are trying to kill you all day long. You just hope that you're better than they are. But some days it happens regardless. And it's hard. It's hard putting guys in the ground. Especially when you've grown up with them your whole life.

Andrew Huberman: Well, you definitely picked the right woman.

DJ Shipley: I lassoed a unicorn. I did. Unbelievable.

Andrew Huberman: I have a good friend... Because I know you've got daughters. And he said, "You want to marry a woman, that were you to have daughters with her, you'd be very happy if they turned out like her."

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Which is one of the best pieces of advice that I didn't hear until fairly recently.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And the moment I heard it, I was like, "Wow, that's really good." You know, they don't tell us that in high school.

DJ Shipley: No, they don't. No, they don't.

Andrew Huberman: But clearly you bullseyed on that one.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: So you're oping, you're alive, guys are dying, you got a family. And it sounds like you love it, too. You're loving the work.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Which is so key. Right? I don't... Because in moments of stress, and all the other stuff that's clearly important, love of country, flags, and all that stuff, it sounds like it's necessary, but it's not sufficient in those moments. The culture is really the glue.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Then you start incurring some damage.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So what do you see in your mind as kind of the first high impact event that's not someone else dying? That your body is starting to take a toll?

DJ Shipley: Hmm.

DJ Shipley: I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. My idol, Matty Roberts, I've talked about him a couple of times... I really, really hung onto that dude. He was my true north. He was the guy. And when he got shot up... When you see it happen, you know, his arm shot off, it flipped around his shoulder, it looked like his arm was completely gone. My fingers were inside his arm, we're trying to solve this thing, they're shooting at us from really, really close proximity. And I think it still has the record... I'd have to ask J. Redman, but I think that was the closest call for fire mission the entire Iraq war. Like, inside of 15 meters. I mean, 40 Mike Mike from AC-130 gunship. It was on top of you. A belt fed machine gun just chewing us up.

DJ Shipley: Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy, and we're all crowded behind this tractor tire just... You felt like a victim. And at one point, right when the initial contact happened, I sprinted to a tree and got a piece of cover. So there's me, three guys that are all shot up, and one other guy who's behind this tractor tire. And I'm screaming at him like, "Hey, I've got an out. Come over here." And he screams, "I'm Black Hawk Down, like, nope. Come to me." And you're looking back at it, you can see all the muzzle flash. And just the way it happened, you had blue forces or friendlies that were in behind him, so you couldn't shoot into this [unintelligible] because you knew there were friendlies who were back there.

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

DJ Shipley: So you're in this weird dance where I can't do anything. Like, I felt helpless. I'm getting rounds poured all over me, and at a certain point you just go, "I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor. I don't want to walk through this. I don't want to live with the survivor's guilt. I'd rather just run back up, and let's just catch it and be done with it." And I ran right back into the center of it and dropped down behind that tire, and started working all the guys back and putting on tourniquets, and QuikClot, and all the stuff. When I came back from that, I was mentally scarred for the rest of my life. And I just never ever processed it. I just blocked it off.

Andrew Huberman: Because it was so close?

DJ Shipley: I think because it was the first time I felt helpless. Like, I was just waiting to die, right? The guy that I looked up to, that I wanted to be like, he was a physical representation of what I thought the essence of being a Navy SEAL was. And he's dying in my arms, and I can't shoot back. We're hunkered down, and rounds are just skipping all over you, and you're just...

DJ Shipley: If that JTAC hadn't called in a fire mission, we'd all be dead. I mean, it's only a matter of time before he stands up and just realizes he can just walk us down. There's no illume. Night vision's all messed up at this point. I mean, everything that could have went wrong, went wrong, and now we're inside of 10 meters getting pounded by a belt-fed machine gun.

DJ Shipley: You can't move. And it was the first time in my life when I truly felt helpless. And everything worked out. Everybody ended up surviving it. We got them in the helicopter and did all that. I just think I never got an opportunity to ever talk about it.

DJ Shipley: And when I went back home, you know, you're taking a shower. The showers in Iraq aren't the best, as you can imagine, and I'm standing there in ankle-deep sludge water that's just filled with blood. I mean, it's all in my mouth, it's all over my hair, and I remember taking the shower and just seeing it all and not knowing if he lived or not. And thinking, 'Do I want to be washing this off?' Because if they call me in 20 minutes and tell me he's dead, this is the last piece of him I have.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: So I saved the cammies, I saved the boots, I saved the shirts, I saved everything I wore. I shoved it all in a bag, and I kept it in case he died. But it was hard, man. The back of that helicopter looked like 'Black Hawk Down.' Just blowout kits and tourniquets and magazines and rounds all over it, and just the most blood I've ever seen. And you're just slipping and sliding in it, just like out of the movies. And it's not. It's dudes you've wrapped your arms around and told you I've loved you 100 times.

DJ Shipley: You're like, 'This is not what I thought it was going to be like.' I didn't think this was going to be like this. I didn't because I'd never seen it. My dad has never been through that. None of his friends ever went through that. Now I am this 20-year-old kid, and this is what I'm living with. And it was hard because you got to walk back in, and the culture of the SEAL team says, "We're not talking about that." Nobody's ever addressing that.

DJ Shipley: When you see him, you know, you always make a joke like, "Hey, did you scream any louder? Like, I'm surprised we all didn't get killed by how loud you were yelling." You always make a joke about it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It wasn't a joke, man. I was traumatized. Like, I worshipped that guy. And to see the reality, like he's not Superman, and neither am I. Fortunately for me, he did the most heroic thing I've ever seen, and that moment has stuck with me forever.

DJ Shipley: When that initial contact happened, everybody got shot, including him. He stood back up and ran forward and grabbed our corpsman, who was all shot up, and started dragging him back, and I watched it happen.

DJ Shipley: Gets shot again, and it spins him, drops him on the floor, and he gets right back up. Picks him up again, gets shot. Arm spins over his shoulder, keeps dragging him back. Gets shot again, hits the ground, gets back up, keeps dragging him. And so, at no point was he ever going to leave that dude. Could he have? Yeah. He could have run and dove behind that tractor tire and sent me out there to go fetch him. He was so committed to the process of 'I am never going to leave you.'

DJ Shipley: If he had taken one right in the head and he would have died right then. He would have never batted an eye about it. If he had known the outcome, he would have went in anyway.

DJ Shipley: And that part has stuck with me the entire time. Like, a true believer will go further than anyone else in the moment of total duress because they're conditioned to it. He's already made up in his mind, "How far are you willing to go?" "The entire way right now. I'm just looking for an opportunity to prove it." And that was his moment to prove it, and he proved it to everybody.

DJ Shipley: And still to this day, I mean, probably still my biggest inspiration in the entire team is Matt Roberts. Unbelievable human. Not trying to get emotional, but yeah. Just an amazing human.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, intense in every way to hear about, so I can only imagine what it's like to be there, and your reverence for people around you who do amazing things is super impressive. I notice you're constantly noticing the people that you've been blessed to be around that show you things.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And the extent to which you internalize it is awesome. I realize it also carries some weight when they're not doing well. It's so interesting. I hope people hear what I'm hearing. I'm sure they are, which is that, it's never about you.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: It's always about seeing this other person that you, you know, were like of almost a superhero status. They're human, and it sort of brings reality back, but all the while, you're a central figure in this interaction. This wasn't like watching it on an iPad from a distance and wishing you could do something. You're in there too, and that's not lost on us as you tell this.

Andrew Huberman: So, you're carrying this in your head, and you're still going back out. So you didn't process it then. Let's talk about you getting electrocuted.

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Because you keep OOPing. Fortunately, you're not killed. And then you're pretty close to the time when you can leave feeling like you've done sufficient time in the teams. You've done your work. Was there a desire to stay in past 20 years, or were you-

DJ Shipley: Oh, yeah. I never planned on getting out. Never. I... Nope.

Andrew Huberman: You wanted to be one of these so-called 'Bullfrogs,' one of these guys.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, or-

Andrew Huberman: I know one I won't mention his name because it... he won't appreciate it.

Andrew Huberman: But he did something like 32 years or something, and he's a friend. I actually asked him once what his training regimen is. He's getting up there now. He's going to give me s*** for saying that, but he's in great shape, obviously. And he says he finds some way to make sure that he's breathing super hard and his heart rate is maxed for an hour a day. Just work out. I'm like, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I didn't ask him the variety of things he's done to accomplish that, but I think it's running, I think it's lifting heavy objects, I think it's swimming, I think it's... But, yeah, it doesn't get any simpler than that. In addition to his physical durability, his mental durability, he says, is directly linked to that. An hour a day, breathing as hard as he can at max heart rate.

Andrew Huberman: That's that sort of Bullfrog mentality.

DJ Shipley: Pretty simple.

Andrew Huberman: So you wanted to be one of those guys, but you decided at some point, it might be wise to lean into the family life?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: No. No. God, no. Nope. I-

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: So... my-

Andrew Huberman: Okay. Bad guess, Andrew. Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. My first major injury, I made it all the way through. You know, I came in 2002. In 2010, I was going through selection for the Tier One organization, and about three-quarters of the way through. We do a big skydive block out in Arizona, and I love jumping, it's my jam, and I had a bad landing.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Downwind landing, hit this ravine, and I snapped my femoral neck, broke that thing. And I was so afraid they were going to wash me out of the program. I just didn't say anything.

DJ Shipley: So I can barely walk. I can't drive a car. I mean, it's full atrophy. It's bad, and I'm jacked up on so many Toradols, Tramadols and 800 milligram Motrin that I'm able to get through and jump. They know something's wrong with me, but they know I'm not going to quit. They know I'm not going to ask for any help, so as long as I can pass the evolutions, we're good, and all I have to do is jump.

DJ Shipley: We graduate that, you know, we get drafted into all the different organizations you're going to go to, and I walked into rehab and I went, "Okay, now that that's over, my back's broken." And they were like, "Oh. Why do you say that?" And they told him, like, we got an MRI on my hip when we were in Arizona, and nothing showed up. They were like, "We think you tore your hip flexor." And I was like, "Oh, if I tore my hip flexor, I don't care. We're good." I thought it was my back. We get home, they run new images, and my femoral neck is snapped off, and you know the deal.

DJ Shipley: You lose a femoral neck, blood supply, total hip replacement, and you're out of the military. And I walked in, saw the doctor, and he's sitting there in front of my command master chief and all the rehab guys, and he goes, "Hey, we got emergency surgery for you tomorrow morning at 07." I went, "No." And he's like, "What?" "I'm not getting surgery. I've never had surgery. I'm not getting surgery. Nope, I got deployment coming up, I'm not doing that."

DJ Shipley: And my command master chief looked at me, and he goes, "Um, let me rephrase this. You're getting surgery tomorrow at 07. If you don't, I'm going to s*** candy out of the program." It's like, "Oh. Okay, what is it?" And he's like, "15 inches of titanium, three lag bolts, we're going to pump them in there. Here's a rehab protocol. You're still going to deploy in..." You know, I think it was a month and a half, and we did. But I got through, from the time I broke it, I did another 85 skydives on it.

DJ Shipley: Went through Utah, I mean, up and, up and down that crazy elevation, just really just sucking it up, but it was a test for mental resiliency. How far are you willing to push to be a part of the organization the entire way?

Andrew Huberman: Did your team teammates know you had a broken femur?

DJ Shipley: Oh yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: We did the emergency surgery. It had a nasty complication, got infected, you know, wound vacs, the whole thing, and they were so cool.

DJ Shipley: They flew a rehab guy over to Afghanistan with me, and that's how we tested out. And, you know, the final test, like, we're doing VO2 maxes and broad jumps and all the things to make sure your hip can take it. And the very last thing was this huge box, probably a 48-inch box.

DJ Shipley: I've got a full kit on, and he looks at me, his name is Mike, and he goes, "Okay, we're going to have you drop off this and land on the bad leg." And he goes, "DJ, do not step off that box if you don't think it'll hold." I knew it wouldn't hold. There's no way it's going to hold. Like, it feels so bad inside me. Stepped off it. Boom. Hit. It felt like a bolt of lightning went through me.

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

DJ Shipley: And I looked at him, and he went, "How do you feel?" I went, "100%." Got my stuff, got in the helicopter. Made it through all that. The screws ended up backing out, going through my IT band a couple of months later. Had to have another surgery, and it was just a long history of things that happened to me, but it really got you used to... We talked about it before. Are you hurt or are you injured?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I got to the point very, very fast in the SEAL teams. I could not tell the difference. I don't know the difference. Everything hurts. Everything's got a limitation, and I'm just pushing through it regardless. And again, it's not like I'm a unicorn. The amount of people who need major reconstructive surgeries, eight out of ten. Everybody needs it. And they just don't do it because you have a deployment coming up or you have a trip you can't miss. There's something going on to where you can't miss it, so you sacrifice yourself. Just don't do it. The same thing was happening.

DJ Shipley: So, I had a gnarly shoulder dislocation. Blew it out, had to have major reconstructive surgery. I had an admin wound, four rounds of plastic surgery, couldn't get it to close, and all the complications are happening. After the shoulder surgery, it was so bad that medical retirement was imminent. So, "Hey, we're going to medically retire you. Same benefits if you do 20 years, but you can't do this job anymore." They wanted to fuse my lower back, my neck, shoulder surgery, shoulder surgery, double hip surgery.

DJ Shipley: So, I had three years of surgeries lined up, and it's like, 'I'm not going to sit here in rehab for three years doing surgeries, taking up a slot. I'm not doing it.' I was like, 'I'll just get out. I'll retire and I'll deal with it on my own.' That's kind of the whole process, so I got put on a laundry list of medications. Sixty-something pills a day, probably 25, 30 different prescriptions we were on.

Andrew Huberman: Goodness.

DJ Shipley: I mean, Cymbalta, Adderall, Gabapentin, heavy, heavy doses.

Andrew Huberman: Cymbalta? They got you on antidepressants?

DJ Shipley: Oh, yeah. And yeah, Cymbalta, when you come off Cymbalta, it gives you the jolts.

Andrew Huberman: Oh.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, Cymbalta's a treat. Lyrica. I've been on everything. Amitriptyline to sleep, taking a heavy dose of those. Ambien, obviously. Everything. Everything in between, you take it all, and you don't realize that you're smashed all day because you're not hitting alcohol. You don't realize that you're processing pharmaceuticals 24 hours a day, every single day, 52 weeks out of the year. You don't realize it. You're not sober. And that was my hardest thing to kind of walk away with. I came out of this rehab program. They put me on these medications, and I felt like a million bucks.

DJ Shipley: I got really hurt in 2013. Amnesia, forgetting where I was at, and when I went down, they gave me these pills, and I felt like Jesus came down and touched me. "You gave me Adderall and Cymbalta." It's like, "Okay, what else do you have?" "Oh, we got this, we got this, we got..." "Give them to me." "Stellate ganglion blocks in my throat." "Give it to me." "Reiki." "Give it to me. Anything you have, I'll do it."

DJ Shipley: There's not a protocol on the planet I have not done, and I've done them at 100% full value. And they buy you a little bit of relief. We got to the point where I was taking so many different medications. A bunch of them you were not allowed to take together. And I had a new doctor come in. He's trying to refill all my prescriptions, and he's like, "You can't take these four medications in combination." He's like, "It'll give you a stroke, DJ. It'll kill you." And I went, "Well, it's 2019. I've been taking them since 2010. Like, I have to keep taking them." He's like, "You're going to have to do a med washout."

DJ Shipley: They sent me down to Walter Reed, the 7 East, it's a neurobehavioral ward. I don't know that. I think it's like a team guy clinic where we're going to go work on shoulder mobility and whatever else. Because I just came after-

Andrew Huberman: Sorry, that laugh, couldn't help it.

DJ Shipley: Oh, I mean, you know, I was... You don't know, right?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I don't know. I go down there. They start taking my shoelaces. They take everything I have, I'm like, "What is this?" I mean, there are fighter pilots who are in there. There are Green Berets who are in there.

Andrew Huberman: You're like, "I went through SERE school. I don't need this."

Andrew Huberman: SERE's kind of like... it's torture training. Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, and I'm like, "I don't know why I'm doing this." They don't tell me it's a neurobehavioral ward. They tell me it's for a med washout. He's like, "Hey, you're going to go there." He's like, "You're going to focus on shoulder rehab," because there was a gnarly shoulder surgery. He's like, "They're going to focus on that. We'll get you washed out of all these meds. We'll come back. You'll be in a good spot. Medical retirement, transition to next phase." I'm like, "Awesome."

DJ Shipley: I went into that hospital broken. My eyes were jet black. I was 180 pounds, just death warmed over. I didn't want to do anything. And I lay in that hospital bed, and I had the most amazing nursing staff. I lay down on that bed, and I started getting sick. And I was like, 'Oh, f***ing food poisoning.' Throwing up, pissing myself.

DJ Shipley: I mean, the whole thing. And I remember throwing up in this bucket, and this beautiful Black nurse has this wet washcloth, and she's washing my face off, and I was like, "I don't know what I ate." I was like, "I'm so sorry." I was like, "I feel so embarrassed." And she's like, "It's okay. It's okay." I was like, "I haven't eaten anything." I was like, "I never get food poisoned." And she's like, "Oh, honey, it's okay." And I can remember the look she gave me, like, "You have no idea why you're here."

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

DJ Shipley: I was like that for probably 10 days. Around the 10th or 11th day, I finally came out of my room. I got sunglasses on. My photophobia was so bad. If you shine light in my eyes, I'd throw up. And with my TBI, it was controlling everything I had. I wasn't sleeping, had insomnia, had everything you could have. And that was the first time in a decade I had been truly sober. No booze, no nicotine, no pharmaceuticals of any kind, and that was my baseline.

DJ Shipley: And if you had given me the ability, I would have closed out that chapter right then. I was done. I could not believe what I had done to myself, what I had turned myself into, and there's no way to get better. Like, I'm stuck like this, and now you're going to kick me out of the only thing that I've ever loved. What am I supposed to do now? Rock bottom.

DJ Shipley: And we started spinning up art therapy. So I'd been there before. We'd done art therapy before, and I found it really beneficial, and actually, the Red Cross used to bring me in dogs. They'd bring me in a Saint Bernard, drop him in my bedroom, and I'd do dog therapy for a little bit. And she's like, "Do you want to do art therapy?" And I was like, "I'd love to." And she's like, "Well, what do you want?" And I was like, "I'd really love a skateboard." And they snuck me out of that hospital, not supposed to, and they drove me down to this little skate shop right outside of Walter Reed.

DJ Shipley: And there's a skate shop there, and I walk in, you know, I've got my gown stuff on, like I'm all jacked up. Hair's super long, beard's long. I looked like a hobo. And I told the guy my story. I was like, "Hey, I grew up skateboarding. Like, it was my passion, and I really would love to have a skateboard just to paint and do art therapy."

Andrew Huberman: "Yeah, because I got a couple bolts in my femur that ripped through a couple tendons and, you know, I just got detoxed and didn't realize it."

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: "And and I'm here. Can I ride a skateboard?" Love it.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. So, he gives me a bunch of blank skateboards, and I go back and I'm papier-mache. I'm doing hands coming out of them. Just a bunch of really dark, demonic stuff, but I felt so good. When I came out, my best friend Cole Fackler, the same guy I started Trybe Skates and GVRs with. We went to BUD/S together. He grew up in Virginia Beach with me, and so, we've been thick as thieves for 25 years now.

DJ Shipley: And he's like, "Well, open up an LLC." He opens up the backside, and he's like, "Let's just make skateboarding your art therapy." So we had an artist come on board. We'd start drawing, you know, motivational things, you know, old school UDT stuff for firemen, stuff for police officers, memorial skateboards. And then I found fracture burning. So you essentially take a microwave transformer, pull it out, and you hook it up to jumper cables. And then run a lead out to an octopus outlet, like 110.

DJ Shipley: So when I clip it on top of the wood and I pour an electrolyte solution on it, Coca-Cola, baking soda with warm water is my favorite, and I hit it. It'll burn the wood grain, and they'll connect. Scrub all that out, fill it with resin, just make these beautiful pieces, and that was my art therapy. I could sit there and burn skateboards all day, every day. It was amazing. Like, it truly changed my life. And I don't know why. I didn't grow up around electricity. Obviously, I'm not very good at it.

DJ Shipley: And it was something about having to sit there and sand the lacquer off that skateboard. I mean, I'd buy brand new skateboards. I'd sand the entire graphic off of it, and then we'd burn them. You have to sand them off. You'd have to rinse them, wait 24 hours, pour the resin, wait 24 hours, sand them off, pour it again, 24 hours. I mean, it's a seven-day process to make one board. And we'd bring in guys who were transitioning.

DJ Shipley: They'd do it too. It was their form of art therapy, and I felt like I was making a difference. And I'm scheduled to retire at the end of August 2019. This is Father's Day. So was that in the-

Andrew Huberman: It's, like, mid-June. Is that right?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Something like that?

DJ Shipley: Right before I'm scheduled to retire. Father's Day morning, around 9:00 AM. I've been up since 5:00, burning skateboards. I got a big bay window that looks out my backyard, and I've got these see-saws set up with these boards. And I've got an EOD guy, an explosive ordnance guy from the Navy. He's making paddles for retirement. So he comes over. They're covered in lacquer. And I'm like, "Yo, my man, I can't burn them while they have the lacquer." So he's got a sander out. I'd been burning, so I unplugged my machine.

DJ Shipley: He plugs into my octopus outlet and is sanding down the lacquer. When he's done, I'll clip in. I'll burn them real quick. He'll finish them off. And my wife, I'll never forget. I look up, and she bangs on the window, and she's like, "It's Father's Day. We're supposed to go eat brunch." And I was like, "Last burn. Last burn." He had unplugged the sander and plugged my machine into the octopus outlet, and now there's a charge going to it. It's sitting on the ground. I don't know it.

DJ Shipley: And the way I run the protocol is there's no electricity running to it, so I mean, you can put these things in your mouth. There's no electricity. So I pick them up to adjust them because then I'm going to walk back, plug it in, and everybody's clear. Flick the outlet. And when I readjusted them, the whole thing lit me up. I had them in both hands.

Andrew Huberman: You closed the circuit.

DJ Shipley: Yep. So they were live on the leads just sitting on the ground. I didn't know it. So I went to readjust them. I made contact with them, and it spun me around, and I faced them about this far away. And I can remember the back of my head was trying to touch my tailbone, and I was trying to fight it. I could feel my teeth heating up. And I was squeezing this thing as hard as I could, and I heard a pop, pop. And I step back. That was my collarbone shattering from the flex. My scapula. They both shattered. But in the process, you take a hose and you wash off all the ash. So right behind me is ankle-deep standing water.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, Jesus.

DJ Shipley: And now I'm holding onto this thing. I step back, and my wife, both my kids are turned around watching me from eight feet away. I pop up, I levitate, and it launches me about 20 feet across my backyard, still holding onto the leads. He, thank God, has the wherewithal to unplug it. So when I wake up, my hair's standing straight up. My hands are smoking, and I exhale. I went... And all this smoke came out of my mouth.

DJ Shipley: And I remember lying on the ground, and he's right in my face, and he goes, "Do you know where you're at?" And I said, "On the ground." And he went, "Can you move?" And I went, "My shoulder's dislocated, for sure." And he went, "Can you sit up?" And I went, "Help me." And he pulled me up, and as soon as he put pressure on there, I could feel my scapula just gravel. I could feel this all hinging in there. My hands are smoking, like... So it blew out of my finger, blew out of this thumb. It fused my tendon to the nerve bundle, so it was stuck like this.

DJ Shipley: I couldn't move anything up here. He stands me up and I tell him, "I'm going to drive myself to the hospital." My wife is freaking out. They're trying to unplug the machine, you know. My kids are running out there, and I don't want them to see me like this. I don't have a shirt on. I don't even have shoes on. I just got a pair of shorts, and my shorts were on fire.

DJ Shipley: So I had little ingrown hairs in my thighs. Electricity was shooting out of those and caught my shorts on fire. Anywhere I had them. So out the top of my head, one next to my nether region. I mean, just exit shots coming out of my body. And I don't know anything about electricity, but it's not good. And I take a turn, and I've probably have to walk maybe 35, 40 feet to my car. So he's in there with my wife, trying to get the keys, trying to get me in there.

DJ Shipley: And I turn and I step to the door. Have you seen 'Kill Bill?'

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Remember the five-finger death touch?

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Five steps? I took one step and everything went... I took another one, and it started closing in. Everything started going black. And I was like, "Oh, God." Third step, and I was like, "Oh, no." Fourth, fifth, and I'm looking through a toilet paper straw, and I'm like, "Oh, my God." I took one more step and everything went black. And I was in total blindness standing out there. I'm opening my eyes as wide as I can, and I'm panicking. I can hear my wife running through the house screaming.

DJ Shipley: I can hear him running around screaming, trying to get everything together, and I'm stuck on the side of my house like this, just shaking. I can't see anything. And I started power breathing as deep and as hard as I could, and I saw a little speck of light. And I just kept doing it, just forcing it. Inhaled through my nose and mouth, just power as much as I can. And it started to open up, open up, open up. And probably 20 breaths into it, it was like I had superhuman vision. It was like I was interconnected with everything on the planet.

DJ Shipley: It was like I had a DMT trip. Everything was super vibrant. I was totally aware of my whole body. I knew everything that had just happened to me. I could recall things from the past. And I knew everything was going to be fine. I'm good. I walk right over to the truck. I open up the car. I get inside it. We hit every single speed bump and pothole from there until the ER. Just jostling around me, and you can hear this-

Andrew Huberman: Just to remind you, your shoulder was a little messed up.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Shoulders, excuse me.

DJ Shipley: Shoulders.

Andrew Huberman: Plural.

DJ Shipley: So I walk through the ER, and Princess Anne Sentara in Virginia Beach has an amazing staff. What they also have is a staff of really, really beautiful nurses. But now it's COVID, so now everybody has a mask on, and all you can see are their eyes. And they had the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen. And I'm lying on my back, you know. I walk in and they can see it, like... One of the nurses made a comment. She's like, "Who brought in barbecue?" And it's my hands.

DJ Shipley: Like, they're melted. They're smoking.

Andrew Huberman: Jesus.

DJ Shipley: It's so bad. It's making me nauseous to think about it. They get me on that table and I'll never forget. This nurse came over and spun her face in, and she goes, "I'm so surprised you still have a penis." I said, "What?" And she went, "Honey, when you get electrocuted, usually fingers come off, your nose comes off, everything comes off of you." And she's like, "As far as we can tell, you're intact. You haven't lost anything right now." She's like, "Move your fingers." I'm moving everything. Open my mouth. "Can you hear?" I can hear, and she's like, "Okay.

DJ Shipley: Well, here we go. "They transfer me. I think I took an ambulance ride. I kind of blacked out for a little bit, and then I woke up in the burn unit in Norfolk, and I had this specialist come in. My wife is now with me. We're lying there, double slings, you know, trying to identify how bad everything is. They know we've had to do an emergency surgery on all this, and he goes, "DJ..." So this is after my two months with Vernon. So, this is the best physical condition I've ever been in.

DJ Shipley: I came from 180, now I'm 220, 6% body fat. I'm in phenomenal shape. Like, I don't need to retire. I could probably still suit it up again, and now I'm lying in this hospital bed. I'll have to show you the photos. And he walks in, and he's like, "Do you know what rhabdo is?" And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "When you get electrocuted, your body releases an enzyme everybody has, but it multiplies rapidly, and your muscles liquify and they go toxic. Then they go septic, and you die. Your issue is you're a big dude. If these enzyme markers hit this level, I'd have to start cutting stuff out of you, man."

Andrew Huberman: Taking muscle off?

DJ Shipley: Yeah. He's like, "Pecs, lats, shoulders, delts, hamstrings, quads." Like, "So every hour, I'm coming back here, and we have to start doing these enzyme markers." So I'm lying in that bed. Can't move, I can't run, I can't do anything, and I'm looking at my wife, and I'm just imagining Dr. Kevorkian coming in here and chopping me up into little pieces. I've never been in a low spot like that. Outside of being stuck behind that tire with Maddie, this was the first time since then when I was a true victim of circumstance. There's nothing I can do to prevent this.

DJ Shipley: There's no magic pill I can take. There's nowhere to run. There's nothing I can do. I'm either going to lie in this hospital bed, or I'm going to let that dude come in here and chop me up into pieces. And I'm just consumed with anger, guilt, and envy. I just don't want to be here right now.

DJ Shipley: And he came back in an hour, and he's like, "Levels are good. Levels are good." Came back next hour, "Levels are good." Third hour, fourth hour, fifth hour, and he's like, "DJ, every person on the planet has this enzyme in their body. Everyone. And not only is yours not climbing, not increasing, there's not a trace of it in your body now." He's like, "I've never seen anything like it." He's like, "Tomorrow morning, you're free to go."

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

DJ Shipley: "Okay." They planned the surgery. They put in two plates, 20-something screws, did the whole thing, but didn't have to chop me up. And from talking to all the other people, typically, people get electrocuted by one touch. So this arm comes off, you know, rib cages blow open. They were like, "We don't know if it's because you had leads in both hands and you just completed a circuit and were to ride it. We don't know what would have happened if you had held it for another second and a half. Was your heart starting and stopping just the perfect timing? All the stars had to align for you to be here right now, and it's a medical mystery."

DJ Shipley: So, I took it with that. Medical mystery. And now we're here. But I had to walk back in. So I get dropped off at my house, and this is where Vernon really comes into play. I'm sitting in my house in double slings. I've got two kids. I've got a wife. I've got no income. I've got no job. I've got no one who can hire me, and I can't do anything physically. Nothing.

DJ Shipley: I'm just lying in there in mental health straight down the tube, and I'm lying there at my kitchen table just feeling absolutely the worst I've ever felt. And I get a... Gimp up to the door, open up the door, and there's my trainer, Vernon.

DJ Shipley: He's like, "Uh, how are we doing, big guy?" "Not good." He gives me this half-a**ed hug, and we walk into the kitchen. And we're sitting down, and he's like, "Talk me through it." I was like, "I can't do anything." He's like, "Okay. Well, now that we've established that, what can you do?" I was like, "Nothing." He's like, "Well, can you make a fist?" You know, my hands are all bandaged up, and I was like, "Yeah," and he goes, "Can you move your wrist?" I'm like, "Yeah," and he went, "Can you walk?" I'm like, "I can walk." He's like, "Perfect."

DJ Shipley: Pulls out his back pocket this little blue two-pound dumbbell, and he sticks it in my fingertips, and he's like, "Curl it," and I curled up, and I did a wrist curl, and he went, "Roll your hand over." "Okay." "So we can do grip, and we can walk. Here we go," and we did that every single day until I could pressurize my upper body enough to where a sneeze wouldn't cripple me, and then we were straight back in the gym. So I'd walk in double slings. He's like, "The only thing we can do is belt squats, lunges, mobility. That's all we're going to do."

Andrew Huberman: You were belt squatting in double slings?

DJ Shipley: Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.

DJ Shipley: But I'd walk in-

Andrew Huberman: Not holding... So you're not holding onto the holds, none of that?

DJ Shipley: I can't do anything.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So, I'd literally walk in. I'd step through like a hula hoop. He would bring it up around me. I'd step on the platform. I'd squat down. He'd clip me in. I'd stand up. He'd unrack it. I'd do my set, re-rack it. He'd take the belt off me, over and over, and he rebuilt me back every single day, five days a week, and we have never missed a session together since 2019. Never. Saved my life, man.

Andrew Huberman: That is awesome.

DJ Shipley: He's been more of a life coach than a strength coach.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, it's unbelievable. And without him, if he hadn't walked in with that two-pound dumbbell, there's no telling where I'd be right now. I told that story at the Tactical Strength Condition Conference. Like, no one does that. No one is going to come over during that moment and push you. Everybody's going to walk over and put the "I'm so sorry for you. Oh, I can't believe this happened." Not him. He's like, "Control things you can control. Can you make a fist? Can you turn your wrist? Wrist curls and 20-minute walks, here we go," and that's what he did every single day. Bounced it all the way back. I mean, he's been there.

DJ Shipley: Had to get a surgery on my hand, had to rebuild this whole hand, all the strength, and everything we've had to do. The stomach, the kidney, everything in between, he's been there for.

Andrew Huberman: How many years ago was that? Roughly?

DJ Shipley: That was in 2019, so what is that?

Andrew Huberman: It wasn't that long ago.

DJ Shipley: Six years.

Andrew Huberman: And now you're feeling great.

DJ Shipley: Oh yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Super robust. We'll talk about your training now and what people can do with that training.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I've gleaned a lot of really useful information from your current training program about setting standards and...

DJ Shipley: Hm.

Andrew Huberman: That is a wild ride.

DJ Shipley: I always say like, "At least give me a cool story with it." Like, I got the skinny thing going on, not a cool story. Electrocution, it's a cool story, you know, it's a feel-good story at the end, it wasn't going through it, but, you know, surround yourself with people better than you, and they'll definitely pull you out of the depths of despair.

Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's an amazing story. At one point, when you made the return to the skateboarding thing, I thought, "Oh, you're going to start skateboarding again, you're feeling better." But it almost killed you-

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: ... and it didn't even have trucks and wheels on the thing yet.

DJ Shipley: Exactly.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, man. I'm going to take a second to absorb all that. I was going to ask you this later when we talk about Ibogaine and DMT, and some of the emerging therapeutics for PTSD, substance abuse, and other things that veterans are really fully embracing now and are making a clear march toward broader treatment of mental health issues.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But I'll ask you now, and I'll probably ask you again later. At any point in this, or headed into this whole set of things, setbacks and comebacks, did you have feelings of higher power? I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot, but were you raised religious? Do you believe in God? Any of that?

Andrew Huberman: I mean, you know, were it not for the fact that a very, very seriously scientifically educated friend of mine, Stanford Medical School, Harvard Medical, who was a lifetime atheist turned to me recently and he said, in his words, "I believe in miracles." And I said, "Miracle miracles or medical miracles?" And he said, "Miracle miracles." I said, "Really? You of all people?" And he said, "Yeah, I believe in it." And I said, "How?" And he said, "Because..." I don't want to reveal who this person is out of, you know, it's his right to talk about these things, but he said because of his math training.

Andrew Huberman: He said, you know, that some of the things he's seen and experienced have exceeded probability statistics that it's impossible, literally impossible for these things to happen. This isn't, you know, one in a trillion or one in 10 trillion. That some of these miracles go beyond what chance could provide, intersecting chances.

Andrew Huberman: And so, you know, to hear a story like yours, people will come up with their own interpretations, and I'm a scientist, so I believe in science. I do happen to believe in God, but it's an individual choice for everybody. But did you ever step back and wonder whether or not, in addition to Vernon, in addition to Matty, in addition to your teammates, in addition to your wife, whose father happened to be a team guy, I mean there's some things around Virginia Beach that could have predicted that perhaps, but did you ever pause and just go, "Yeah, maybe there are forces beyond everything I can see that are watching out for me"?

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Because you've had a number of second, third, fourth chances that it's starting to sound miraculous.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: They are. We didn't grow up religious at all.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I was always spiritual. Always. And I mean, you experience things in life that can't be explained, and then when you see religious people, they're like, "Well, that's a miracle." And you're like, "Is it a miracle or am I just lucky?" And you start to look at it, and then you do 5-MeO-DMT and you realize like, yeah, it's got to be real. Like, there has to be a higher power, there has to be something that's pulling the strings, that's making this happen, like divine intervention. There's no reason I should be here after that.

DJ Shipley: After this, this, you add up all these things, like there's not a chance. Like, why? Like, what am I supposed to be doing here? How am I supposed to pay that forward? Like, if somebody's pulling the strings to make sure I'm sitting in this seat, what am I doing to make sure I'm not wasting this opportunity?

DJ Shipley: But I mean, it definitely makes you question. I mean, I definitely see why guys get, I don't want to say hung up on religion, but when they really buy in, they really turn the page and you're like, "How much of that is just for TV?" None of it with that guy. Right? Like, he felt it, he saw the change and I mean, I've seen too many miracles happen to believe that somebody's not behind it, something's not behind it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, appreciate you sharing that. I realize that, especially on a science health podcast, and we talk about other things, but I've talked about it more and more recently just that, I mean, I can't help but be a curious human being and wonder about these things.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Whatever the case may be, you made it through. You retired.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I couldn't imagine. If your wife had heard that you were not going to retire, I mean, I like to think that nothing can break your guys' marriage, but man, that's a lot to bear.

DJ Shipley: She was over it.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: With the kids seeing this.

DJ Shipley: She was over it.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, you know, and I had turned myself into something I wasn't proud of.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You know, I talk about dials, not switches. Being able to power it down, power it up, and power it off. I never did that. So, she got to see the transition from being at SEAL Team 10, and then going over to the tier one organization, and what that does with you. The pressure to perform, the performance on demand, it changes you. It has to. You can't be the same person you were at 17, 19, 20, and then do that job. You can't. You have to be able to change.

DJ Shipley: And I think a lot of that, it was just wearing her down. I mean, I was gone so much, and a lot of that I try to explain to the guys now, like, "Don't do what I did." I would go on every single trip I could because I was living these multiple different lives. Like, I would go out to Arizona and I would skydive for months on end, right? I mean, God, I think I did almost 4,000 jumps in seven years. We went, we turned the page.

DJ Shipley: And that's deploying, that's every other training trip, that's just sacrificing every weekend and making big pushes out there. But when you go, no one knows who you are. They don't know what you do for a job, they just think you're a normal skydiver. Like, we're doing these big wave formations and, you know, trying out for world records and doing all this stuff, and it's amazing. But it just takes you so far away from that person I have to be in Virginia Beach, you become addicted to it.

DJ Shipley: And then when I go here, I can be someone else completely. No one knows who I am. I go on this trip, no one knows who I am. You don't talk about the job you do, you make up a line. I'll throw them out there and it'll make them all mad. We tell everybody you're part of the Red Bull Air Force.

Andrew Huberman: Red Bull Air Force?

DJ Shipley: Yeah. Like, we skydive with all the boys, we know them all.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And because you skydive enough, you can speak the lingo. Like, they see you out in all the drop zones. You can fake that really, really well. Some guys will be a hot air balloon pilot, you'll be an MMA fighter, you'll be a hockey team where we had real long hair. You can adopt these different personas, and I think a lot of that is just trying to compartmentalize what you have back home, so I don't have to think about it.

DJ Shipley: Because literally, I mean, your buddies will tell you, you'll be sitting on the couch at 2:00 in the afternoon, and when that pager goes off, you're gone, right now. Like, you got 30 minutes. There's no goodbye, there's no, "Oh, let me swing by work real quick and give you one kiss." I'm going fishing. Jump in a car and you're gone, and you got to be able to shut it off. It's very, very hard to do when you're just so obsessed with being the best husband, the best father. You can't shut that off.

DJ Shipley: The whole flight in just thinking about it, I'm like, "If this happens, this happens, how my daughter's gonna react." Like, "Oh, my God, they're going to come here. What point of the day is she going to get the news? I'm not going to be there for their marriage, I'm not going to be there for this, this." You start to think about everything you're going to miss. Clouds your judgment, and it makes you hesitate at that moment. You can't. You can't hesitate, especially when no one else does, and you paint that in your mind. Nobody else in here is thinking about being a full-time dad or a full-time husband right now.

DJ Shipley: Nobody cares if I'm a 63% husband. Nobody cares. They need me to do this job at 100% because that's what this craft deserves. But it turns you into something you don't want to be long-term. It's hard, man. But she was done. She was begging for me to hang it up, because all of our friends are dying. And then all the guys that transition out and they start doing contracting jobs, they're getting killed, they're getting shot, we're picking them up from the hospital. What else you want me to do? There's no retirement club. You want me to work at Home Depot? What do you want me to do? I only know how to do this one thing, and that was the plan. I was going to retire and start contracting with one of the government agencies and essentially do the same job I do now, just make a little bit better money, a little bit better schedule, and one thing led to another, and ended up not doing it.

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Andrew Huberman: I want to talk about ibogaine, DMT, mental health.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: But first, I want to talk a little bit about posture.

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: Recently, I heard you talking about physical posture in the gym, literally form and how upright one is with their stance or squat, and how that translates to mental posture. And it was the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about translating the physical into the mental in this way. So, if you don't mind, how do you think about mental posture and physical posture, and how the two intersect?

DJ Shipley: I think in that analogy, the metaphor I used, physical posture, if you think if I stand feet shoulder width apart and I put a barbell on me, you slide on 45s, I'm strong, two more 45s, I'm strong. You could load up 800, 900 pounds and I could sit there and hold it. Or if you put 315 pounds on it, I can drop butt the floor and I can squat it. If I hold it at 90 degrees and you add on a 45, it feels like a ton. You start adding on 10s, everything starts to quiver.

DJ Shipley: I use the same thing as my mental health. If I wake up in the morning, I've set my morning routine and I'm firing on all eight cylinders, you can stack on everything on top of me. Because I'm in an optimal state, I can take it just like I'm in a full posture. Just keep giving it to me, keep giving it to me.

DJ Shipley: If I wake up, my morning routine's not there, I start reading some hateful stuff in the morning, don't have a good input with my wife first thing, I'm stuck behind the school bus, late for my first meeting, now you hand me a parking ticket, it feels like the world is collapsing on top of me and I can't do anything for it. So, throughout the entire day, that's the whole purpose of the micro win kind of formula. Stack up as many wins to put yourself in an optimal headspace because reality isn't going to know, it's going to smack you either way.

DJ Shipley: And if I keep myself blocking everything that's externally toxic to me, when something does get put on me that I have to wear, I'm in a good posture to put it on. That jacket might weigh 55 pounds, I put it on and I'm still strong because I've been dropping off everything that I don't need to wear all day long. Yeah, I mean, but you'll see it, I mean, I know you see it, you analyze people all day long, when people are in a negative headspace, their posture changes. Their head drops, their shoulders roll forward, they're always looking at the ground, they're never up processing information. It's because they're dragging whatever just happened all day long.

DJ Shipley: Now you add in one more thing, your mom's got cancer. It's like, "Oh." Your wife's going to leave you, "Oh." Your kids are so... "Oh." Everything just starts to weigh down on you, and it feels like something you'll never get past, insurmountable at some point. And that's all because you will start to let it slowly but surely chip away at you.

DJ Shipley: It's like, control the things you can control, and the things you can't control, you either avoid them completely or you take them as that's the reality you have to live through right now. I don't know why you have cancer, but you do, and you got to get through it. Okay. Well, what positive things do I have? Great relationship with my wife, great relationship with my kids, great relationship with my friends, my social circle has shrunk, everyone around me is better than me and they want me to be better. Okay.

DJ Shipley: Well, I can take on a whole lot if I don't have a tight circle, no relationship with my wife, ostracized from my kids, everything. Now you start to add on that external stress, it cripples me really, really fast, and I know I'm not the only one. So, when I say it to everybody, like, whatever you have going on right now, whatever is absorbing all your bandwidth, it's us too. But you're choosing to wear that jacket all day. You're putting on another one, and then another one, and then you add the external pressure of having to provide for a family and be, you know, that emotionally stable figure for the household. It's hard to do all day long, and a lot of people lose sight of it, and I think that's why so many people close their chapter early. They opt for suicide because they think, "There's no way I can right this ship. Like, it's gone too far right now, and I don't want to have to sit here and rebuild it," and they close the chapter out.

DJ Shipley: It's like, if we could have eliminated all those things and given yourself a breath of fresh air, would you have done the same thing? If I would have grabbed you right before the moment, be like, "This isn't permanent. You can fix this right now, you just have to change these aspects," they would. In the moment, though, and I've been there, you don't have the clarity. You don't have the vision. And a guy told me a long time ago, he goes, "I think a lot of people want to hit the reset button on the Nintendo. Cha-ching, restart. Restart the game." You're not restarting the game. It's over forever.  And I hate seeing people do it. I think now, you know, after I've come out of the medicine, I've done a bunch of therapy and cut out a lot of toxicity out of my life, I've gotten that breath of fresh air.

DJ Shipley: You know, I told Marcus and Amber Capone when I came out of the treatment, "I'm going to jump on the nearest building, I'm going to shout it from the rooftops, like, this will help." There is a way out of this funk, it's just one step further than you've currently gone. There's light at the end of that tunnel, just one step further, one step further, and just continuously going, it'll get better.

DJ Shipley: But, yeah, for me, posture is a huge thing. I mean, in combatives it's a huge thing, in processing information it's a huge thing, in dealing with stress it's a huge thing. I can't let myself collapse, because once you start adding another pound to me, it hits me to the floor really fast. So, control the things you can control, and a lot of it is just your posture and your perspective.

Andrew Huberman: Great message. Would you agree that lying down in bed on one's phone, on social media is a very dangerous posture? Because I would argue that.

DJ Shipley: Yes. And I also tell guys, "If you are going to lay in the fetal position and tweet out how bad your mental health is, stop. Go to a Starbucks, go to Whole Foods, walk around and see normal human interaction and tell a stranger you're suffering from mental health." They don't do it. You're just going to sit there in a fetal position feeling sorry for yourself and you think it'll get better tomorrow. It won't. I've already lived that life, I've already painted the picture for you. I've played you the movie, you've watched it. It's not going to work.

DJ Shipley: You're going to have to get out of that bed and you're going to have to do something every single day that brings you out of that dark depression. And for me, it's physical movement. If you have the ability to move, move. Don't lay in that bed, don't just sit there and scroll. You know, Vernon says it, your diet's important. Not what you eat, but what you consume. Visually, audio, like the music you listen to. We all know, there's some music you listen to that just changes you ever so slightly.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Is that the person I need to be walking through this door? Do I need to blare Megadeth right now? No. I need to play Ludovico, that's what I need. I need to walk into this room at 100% full capacity and just receive whatever energy is in the room right now. It's hard to do if I'm in the depths of despair right now. So, yeah, I try to put myself in a position where I have optimal posture all day.

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned Marcus and Amber Capone.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Now's probably a good time for us to just reference-

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: ... who they are and the work that you guys have been doing. And any time I sort of plug something or mention something, I want to be very clear, I don't have any formal affiliation to this upcoming Netflix show? Movie?

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Film.

Andrew Huberman: It's a film, excuse me, to this upcoming Netflix film.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: But it's going to be an incredible film. I know this because I've seen bits of it. Maybe just mention who Marcus and Amber Capone are, and what they've been doing, and the film. I do think this is something everyone should see. I'm definitely going to see it. And I'll just say that I think their organization, Veteran Solutions, is one I've been paying attention to and trying to support in ways I can over the last, gosh, it's been three, four years. And so maybe tell us about Marcus and Amber and the film.

DJ Shipley: So, Marcus joined the SEAL Teams right pre-9/11. Married Amber, had a baby right when the SEAL Teams got stationed on the East Coast with me at SEAL Team 10. And you could watch him change throughout the years, like everybody else, but because he's such a big polarizing figure, he's hard to miss. I mean, he's probably 6'5", 240.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, he's a big dude.

DJ Shipley: He's a big guy and he was extremely intimidating.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: But he always had a light in his eyes. He always seemed like a dude you wanted to be around. And after the conflicts and the multiple deployments, I mean, you'd see him out in town and his eyes got jet black. And he would be a guy that if you were walking on the street and you saw him come out, just the way he looked at you, you would cross the street. And he became one of those guys, I give you the analogy walking to the SPCA and you see that pit bull, ears been shaved off, there's scars all over his face. You're not going to put your hand in that cage. Marcus Capone was like that.

DJ Shipley: He leaves the SEAL Teams, has a very rocky transition, gets a job in finance, moves around, and you hear it through the rumor mill about how bad he's doing. Drinking, just not the person you wanted him to be, and definitely not the transition you wanted for him. And then it got so bad, you know, suicide was definitely on the table, circling the drain, drinking way too much, just toxic in every way you can imagine. And Amber, being the angel that she is, started to research different solutions. He did MeRT, meditation, yoga, talk therapy, drugs, did everything you could, and she found ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT, and convinced him to go down there.

DJ Shipley: And it was one of those things, much like mine, "You're going to go do this treatment, and this is our last attempt, and if this doesn't work, I'm leaving you." And for a team wife to throw in the towel after the career is over, that lets you know how bad it is, because they have combated that entire thing. I mean, they were in the heart of NSW, in the heart of the GWOT, and buried more friends than you'd ever care to count. And after all of that, she's finally going to throw in the towel. That's how bad he's gotten.

DJ Shipley: And, you know, you hear that he came back and you wouldn't even recognize him. Like, you won't believe what Marcus Capone looks like. And I hadn't seen him, but you got to understand, coming from the East Coast, and I'm an idealist, like, I'm a true believer, and when you hear that Marcus left the East Coast and went to the West Coast and now he's doing yoga, meditation, and smoking toad venom, you're like, "West Coast, typical. I knew you'd turn him." And then you see him and you're like, "That's the best version of Marcus I've ever seen."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And he's not a pacifist. He can still roll that dial all the way over, but he has full control over it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You know, 20 years old, flipped the Navy SEAL switch and just lived that life to the fullest. Never had a balance point. Never needed one, never tried to adopt one. So, during my whole transition... I'll say when he got out, they sat dormant on that medication for a while, because it was so out there and you didn't want to shock the culture, you didn't want to shock the community, and it's taboo. I mean, doing psychedelics is not a thing that Navy SEALs do.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and ibogaine is a 22-hour psychedelic.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: It's very esoteric. Most people have heard of psilocybin or even LSD or MDMA.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: And DMT, I mean, this is as far out there as you possibly can go. I'm sure someone sitting there is like, "No, there's some chemical made in..." You know? But it's extreme. It's extreme.

DJ Shipley: It is extreme. And just like the SEAL Teams, you do everything to the extreme, and that's where you go.

Andrew Huberman: There seems to be a theme there, yeah.

DJ Shipley: And, you know, I was going through a similar thing. But when they came out, one of his very good friends, Chad Wilkinson, committed suicide. And I think enough was enough. And that was one of his best friends, and it crippled him. And when you see him get the news, you can watch at this... Oh God, I'm gonna try not to cry. You can watch that loss affect him in a way that nobody else will understand. And he knew he was holding onto this secret. Like, "This saved my life, and if I would have given that to him, he'd still be here and I know it. What am I gonna do? I got to start a 501(c)(3) and I got to start saving as many people as humanly possible. And selfishly, I'm gonna save as many SEALs as humanly possible."

DJ Shipley: And once he saved one, saved two, three, four, five, Army Rangers, Green Berets, fighter pilots, they all just start pouring in here. It's the same trauma. It doesn't matter how you got it. You're at the brink of it, and you're going to close this chapter out, and this medicine is going to give you that breath, it's going to give you that relief to not do it. And they made this little infomercial that was on social media talking about psychedelics. And I had heard about it and I kind of whitewashed it, and my wife was at the same point. She was getting ready to leave me and take the two kids, and, "I can't do this anymore." And we laid in bed one night and she watched it, and she was crying. And she leaned over and she made me watch it, and I started bawling because I could see the difference.

DJ Shipley: The last time I saw Marcus and this Marcus is very, very different. And she looked over and she goes, "If you love me, you'll go." I went, "I'll go do psychedelics with my friends in Mexico, sure." I never thought it would do anything because I had messed up so much until that point. All the pharmaceuticals, all the mistakes I had made, the infidelity, everything had led me up to that point, and I had that secret inside me, and I did not have the strength to tell her. I didn't want to break her heart about all the things I had messed up. And for me, if you think me going down to Mexico is going to save our marriage, I will 100% do it, but I never thought for a chance it would. Never.

DJ Shipley: And I went down there with a bunch of guys that were legends inside of the community and, you know, Ambio, Trevor, Jose, Jonathan, Brianna, everybody at Ambio Life Sciences, they run the best facility I've ever been a part of in any facility.

DJ Shipley: That medicine is so strong, and I think that's why guys get such relief. It's the only thing stronger than your ego because you've turned yourself into this vessel you think represents the essence of what being a Navy SEAL is. You're hard, you're determined, you'll never lose. Like, you'll, you'll sacrifice everything right now if the group asks you to do it. But you won't do it for yourself. You'll never put your individual needs above the needs of the group, and this is one point where you have to. You have to go for the good of the group, I have to suck up my ego, got to suck up my pride, and I have to try to kill it right now. And we went down there and took that medicine.

DJ Shipley: I had a combatives instructor, his name's Tom Kier from Sayoc Tactical Group. If you've ever watched the movie "The Hunted" with Benicio del Toro, the knife fighting, that's what they do and they are the best in the world. And Tom Kier is a knowledge transfer specialist. He's changed my life and mindset more than anybody else on the planet. And he told me a quote the other day and it references this kind of, and we were talking about experience, and he goes, "If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible." And that came from Dave Joyce, another Sayoc disciple, and it's the truest thing I've ever heard.

DJ Shipley: Unless you've done Ibogaine, unless you've done psychedelics in a therapeutic setting, you'll have no idea how powerful it is. And when I woke up that next day, everything I had ever done, negative, positive erased, everything negative, every conversation, every bad deed, every time I've hurt anybody, every time I've made my wife cry, every time I've not been present was in the forefront of my mind. And I felt absolutely terrible. I felt like a monster for everything I had done, every time I had not been present, every time I had sacrificed them for this thing. I didn't want to go home.

DJ Shipley: And at the same token, it was the only time in my life I'd ever been homesick. I wanted to teleport and go home and wrap my arms around those three. But I was so embarrassed at everything that I had done, there's no way I can do it. I can't go home and break their heart. And you have the gray day after you do Ibogaine. I mean, it feels like you got hit by a freight train just in your feels, dudes are throwing up all day, depending on how your experience is.

DJ Shipley: The next day you do 5-MeO-DMT and that's the ego death. You know, comes the Sonoran Desert toad, they milk out the poison glands and that's essentially what you're smoking, and it's pretty intimidating, looks like you're smoking crack rock. And that experience, when you smoke that, it must be like either what finding religion or what dying's like.

Andrew Huberman: Well, you almost died with the electrocution.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And we had a very accomplished neuroscientist on the podcast, Christof Koch, he's been studying consciousness for a long time and he talked about his experiences on 5-MeO-DMT, total dissolution of self, total dissolution of space and time, but he described that his mind was still there, but nothing else was there.

Andrew Huberman: And again, if someone hasn't done it... I've never done it, but if someone hasn't done it, I'm guessing that no description will suffice. I've heard it, like, from another team guy being described as being strapped to the shock wave of an atom bomb. I'm like, you know, I've heard a bunch of different descriptions.

DJ Shipley: Hmm.

Andrew Huberman: When you come out of that experience, however, how did that reframe the electrocution, the loss of... I mean, we could spend three days talking about every single guy that you know that's been killed and still probably only touch on a small number of them, sadly. You know? So, how does all that get reframed coming out of an experience like that?

DJ Shipley: The biggest concern doing Ibogaine was that you were going to be stuck inside of your own thoughts. Everybody you had lost, you were just going to relive it, you were going to be in the back of that helicopter, you were just going to have to relive that for 24 straight hours. And I will tell you that not a single person that I have ever done Ibogaine with has ever had any military experience. It's always been your childhood, and then a reflection of what you've done to your wife and kids. It gaps it. So I've done Ibogaine four times. I have never had a singular military experience, ever. Nothing.

Andrew Huberman: Childhood?

DJ Shipley: Childhood.

Andrew Huberman: Big time.

DJ Shipley: Childhood, and then in the actual medicine, it would allow me to relive past events with my father, with my mother, hard conversations, you know, blowups, arguments, screaming, smashing.

Andrew Huberman: Things you had forgotten?

DJ Shipley: Things I had forgotten. Things that were never on my conscious mind.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: And now I'm reliving them. And then it would shift, and it would be me doing that exact same thing to my wife, to my kids. And then it'll put you in their position. So, when I'm screaming, I'm projecting just this hate and this venom is shooting out of me, I can be that seven-year-old little girl, and I can feel how frightened she is by what she's watching her father turn into.

Andrew Huberman: So real empathy.

DJ Shipley: That is what it is. You become so empathetic to everyone and everything, and it's the forefront of your mind, like, "I don't want to go home because now I know what I've done. I can't mask it anymore. There's no more compartmentalization. I've done all those things, I've said that terrible stuff, and I'm never going to be able to re-earn my seat at the table." And it's one of those weird predicaments where I want to go home but I don't because I don't want to face that I actually did and said that.

DJ Shipley: It's like, out of every good thing I've ever done, it all got erased on that moment. The only thing we're gonna focus on is all the bad stuff you've ever done and said. So, when we came into 5-MeO, I did six rounds of 5-MeO my first time down there. Every single one is the most painful thing you've ever been a part of.

DJ Shipley: And Trevor says it beautifully down at Ambio, he said, "Whatever's going to happen, let it happen. If you think you're gonna explode, explode. If you think you're gonna die, die. If you think you're gonna drown or blast off in the stratosphere, do it. Don't try to control it. That medicine will take you exactly where you need to go, you just have to let it." And every time I would, I would start, I would scream, and then I would cry and convulse, throw up, and I'd wake up and I'd look around and he'd look at me again, "Hit him again." And I'd do it again, and I'd do it again.

DJ Shipley: And it was the very last time I did 5-MeO, and you got to understand, I was super depressed and I was most certainly suicidal, I did not want to come home and face reality, and I took that last one and right before I did, I can't remember if it was the nurse, because we used to have team guys who would sit there and hold space for you, not taking the medicine, just they were there to basically safeguard the house so you could just focus on you, because it's hard to be put under essentially anesthesia in a foreign country and you don't know what's gonna happen to you.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So, just comforting knowing there's team guys around you. And it was either the nurse or one of the team guys goes, "You want to kill yourself, right?" I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "Then do it. Do it with this right here." And I changed my intention for the medicine and I told myself it was this pink toxin, this purple toxin, I'm going to inhale it and I'm gonna coat my entire body with this and I'm gonna kill myself right here so I don't have to go home, and that changed the entire experience for me.

DJ Shipley: Everything shrunk down jet black, and a single white pixel showed up and it exploded and it looked like it was Star Trek taking off, all the tracers and everything, it felt like your sternum broke open and your soul left your body and it was the true ego death, and it went from screaming, thrashing, to complete bliss, and love, and affection, and empathy, and compassion, and everything. And I woke up and I looked at him and I could not believe the way... Instantly, I mean, the most sober you've ever been. You're not on any medication, not cannabis, not Adderall, nothing. You can't be on any medication when you go down there, so this is true sobriety at its finest, and when you wake up, it's exactly like the electrocution. Everything is more vibrant, the table edges are slick and clean, like I can feel the taste and the texture and I can feel the energy coming out of everybody, and it's like, "I can tell her. I can go home and I can confess everything right now because I understand that I have done more good than bad."

DJ Shipley: And she's going to see it. She just has to see the new me. And we went home and, you know, everything kind of unfolded and all my past indiscretions came to life and it was the darkest moment for me because I didn't think she was going to take me back. And she ends up pulling my sunglasses off. She pulls them off, and looks at me, and essentially collapsed in my arms. Like, I was back. I'd been gone for 15 years and now I'm home and the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. And if I wouldn't have gone down to Mexico, there was no talk therapy, there was no meditation, there was no cold plunge that was going to get me there. It was something stronger than me.

DJ Shipley: And when you look back, I'd been building that physical vessel, this mental resilient vessel this entire time so nothing could break me, and I needed something stronger than that to break me. And the moment it did, my whole life changed. Everything changed. And I really became an advocate for the medicine, because I'd been there. I'd been sitting in my guest room with that pistol in my lap, staring around the ceiling wondering where my brain matter's going to go, and what my wife's going to see, and how she's going to have to clean it up and resell the house and just all the things.

DJ Shipley: I mean, that's where you're at, and that's where a lot of guys are, and they don't believe they can get a breath of fresh air, and that medicine will give it to you. It is not a cure-all. Even you have to go back and restructure your entire life and cut out the toxicity. That was one of the most powerful things we did is I came back from that medicine, I sat down on the edge of that bed with my wife after we had gone through everything I had done, and I went through my phone and we blocked and deleted about 150 people out of my life. Best thing I ever did. Like, you're never coming back in here. I've been trying to foster and save that relationship for the better part of a decade. I'm not doing it anymore. You're robbing bandwidth and you're robbing the little time I have left on this planet that I'm going to try to devote to my family, because I have to re-earn this seat at the table every single day, and it gave me the ability to do that.

DJ Shipley: And I came home, started preaching about the medicine, and then as I started to tell guys, you'd see guys that were interested and they were like, "Well, if it worked for him," because I'm a true believer, I'm devout, and they're like, "If it worked for him, it'll work for me," but they're scared to go. So, I was probably home maybe a month or two, I went right back down and I essentially hosted one. I'm cooking breakfast for the boys, I'm cleaning snot off of them, I'm doing the whole thing just trying to push them. And slowly but surely, you start saving guys 10 guys at a time over and over.

DJ Shipley: And, you know, that's really all because of Marcus and Amber. If they would not have made that little infomercial airing out all their dirty laundry and how open and transparent he was, like, that is not the Navy SEAL way, that is not how you're supposed to do it, and when he did it, it was so empowering to me. I mean, I looked up to him. I mean, he was on his second deployment when I came in and, you know, Marcus is larger than life to me. So, when you see that openness, that transparency, I can do that. I can do that too. And if I do that, some kid going through the exact same thing as me that's stuck on that island alone will see me and go, "If he can do it, I can do it."

DJ Shipley: You got to want to change, and you have to put steps in place to where you can live at full value. The morning routine. I don't break it because I know what happens if I don't have it. The worst I've ever been, I wasn't living that morning routine. I was still working out, but it was chaotic at best, right? Like, my range wasn't there, my combatives wasn't there. I slowly let it drift away to where I was a shell of myself. And once I got that breath of fresh air, I am never going back. I mean, I just came back on Saturday. I went back down again. Took down a bunch of veterans, a bunch of civilians that were down there and it's so interesting to see because you have fighter pilots that are down there, you have normal housewives that have drinking problems, toxic marriage, sexual abuse, all this different stuff and everybody's ended up at the exact same spot. We've tried everything.

DJ Shipley: We tried the drugs, we tried the talk therapy, the cold plunges, the saunas, all that. And it's helping, but it's not getting us over the goal line. And when those people wake up the very next day, they are at total rock bottom. And when they come out of that 5-MeO-DMT, their feet don't hit the ground for months. You are on cloud nine and you cannot believe how good you feel. I just want the world to be able to experience that. It doesn't matter what trauma you have going on, it's not a Navy SEAL medicine or a medicine for special operation. This is a medicine to save humanity, and if you are at the bottom of the barrel right now, they'll save you.

DJ Shipley: I mean, I went on 60 pills a day. I'm not on anything. Not a single pain med. I mean, I've got more screws in me than a Home Depot and I feel like a million bucks but, you know, for me, my family deserved it. And if I have to go down there and go through all that trauma over a five-day period to give them a better version of myself, I'll do it every single time. That juice is so worth the squeeze. But it's scary, man. It is. Because you're afraid.

DJ Shipley: And when I talk to guys, they're so afraid they're going to come out of it and be a pacifist. They're afraid they're going to lose the edge and like, "Well, what if you did that medicine while you were in the teams, could you still do that job?" 100%. I just wouldn't have drug them home with me. I could have done that job and then powered it off, and I could have done my same routine now and I could have went home and been a full-time husband or full-time father. I could still compartmentalize it when I went to work, and I could just focus on work, because I'm running on dials and not switches.

DJ Shipley: You can't just turn it on and shut it off. You can't. You got to be able to back it off slowly, and that's why I use that drive into work every day. I'm not thinking about my family in three, two, one. All I'm thinking about is the lift, because that's the only priority I have. Once a lift is done, what's the piece of content we're shooting? What's the training course we're doing? Who do I need to be when I walk through that threshold? And that medicine really gave me the ability to navigate between those spaces better than anything else I've ever found, and I'm so thankful for it.

DJ Shipley: I know it sounds hokey and I am not that guy, you know, yoga and, you know, crystal. I'm not that dude. And it's very foofoo. A lot of it is and a lot of people practicing that stuff, they push it so far out in the left that you think that you're going to end up like one of the Lost Boys and running around the rainforest with feathers hanging out of your hair. It's not like that. It's not like that at all.

DJ Shipley: It's an amazing facility, it's an amazing program, and I'm just so thankful that they had the ability to share that message. If they wouldn't have, we'd be in the exact same position. I think they've put I think 3,000 or 4,000 people through that medicine in the last, I think three years. They're absolutely saving people's lives.

Andrew Huberman: It's been remarkable to see the growth of Veteran Solutions. Again, I have no formal affiliation, it's just something that I observed and I really respect. And my colleague, who's been a guest on this podcast, Dr. Nolan Williams, he's a triple board certified physician, he's my colleague at Stanford, and, you know, a couple of reflections that I think perhaps are also important for people listening to hear, because you said go down there, it's done in Mexico, because it's still not legalized in the United States.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: It requires supervision. This is very different even than psilocybin, MDMA, LSD. There's really no recreational use of these things that is reasonable or safe. So, I'm not saying that just to protect myself, I'm saying that to protect people listening.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: That said, you know, Nolan and I have talked a lot about this. He's the one scanning guys that go down there and come back, and I think it's fair to say that pretty much every positive shift, whether it's an improvement or a cure from a mental health issue, is brain plasticity, something gets rewired. And these are tools to enable brain plasticity. And I think it's helpful, perhaps, for people to hear it that way because psychedelic sounds like tie-dye, sounds like kaleidoscope, sounds like magic carpet, sounds like the '60s, sounds like people staring at the sun burning their eyes out and then talking about how they've seen God and everyone else needs to have the same experience, summer of love, dirty feet and all that.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Okay. It is amazing to me that the veterans community and a bipartisan effort, I will say, this is one of the few truly bipartisan efforts out there, everything is so polarized, but former Governor Rick Perry of Texas, who is self-described knuckle-dragging Republican, he said that, I'm not saying that about him, he says it every time, has fully embraced ibogaine, and heart medicine, it's sometimes called MDMA therapies as well and has been really working with people on the Democratic side of the aisle to try and get FDA approval for this stuff in the United States, for the treatment of veterans and other people with substance use and severe trauma issues first. And then it will be explored how this could wick out into the broader population.

Andrew Huberman: But I just think of them as incredibly powerful tools for brain plasticity. And then maybe that just kind of softens for people in their minds a little bit of just how wild and crazy it is. I mean, the experiences are extreme, as you said, it's challenging to be in the ibogaine. Heard that from everyone who's done it. I haven't yet done ibogaine. At some point I will, but I've certainly done therapeutic sessions with MDMA, therapeutic, and high-dose psilocybin and it can be terrifying, and you need someone there to help guide you through it at times.

Andrew Huberman: But I'm so happy that Marcus and Amber undertook this project, that you joined up with that project, and the Netflix movie. We'll provide a link to it if it's out. Otherwise, we'll just cue people to the fact that they should definitely watch this. It's an extremely compelling and important story for people to hear.

Andrew Huberman: I can't help but mention just because I've had the great experience of being able to interact with some of the people around this, and the effort is so wholehearted and it's so deeply rooted in trying to help people, and I think that's really important for people to hear too, because any time there's a business association with things, people start to color that. There's just so much pure intent in all of this. I also have gotten to know Sarah Wilkinson a little bit.

DJ Shipley: She's amazing.

Andrew Huberman: She's amazing. Chad's wife.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: First through Veteran Solutions and, you know, she's an amazing woman, you know, and I think it's been challenging to see all these guys that he was friends with get better, right? And it's so tragic that someone has to take their own life for things like this to eventually get stimulated. But the amount of good that Veteran Solutions is catalyzing is really spectacular, and so I'm glad we're taking some time to talk about it, and I think it's been discussed on other podcasts, and I think this movement's just going to grow. I think it's broken through now.

DJ Shipley: It has.

Andrew Huberman: And hopefully this will continue to help it break through.

DJ Shipley: When the whole thing first started, John Shank and Bonnie Koen reached out about doing the film "In Ways and War," and they actually kind of tricked me to be a part of it. They told me that Marcus and Amber were spearheading this project, so I was like, "If Marcus and Amber are in, I'm in. I owe them anyway, they saved me, I'm into it." That wasn't really the case. They spearheaded me, I'm on board, and then they convinced Marcus and Amber to join on board, and now it's essentially his whole story unfiltered, unbiased, my whole story, and then us going back for my buddy Matty and how all our lives are entangled in teams and just all the trauma we all share, and how we're all getting through it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: But, you know, it kills addiction in one shot, which is crazy. People that are addicted to heroin. Like, I dipped Copenhagen for 17 years, never wanted to quit.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I woke up the very next morning from ibogaine and never had a dip since.

Andrew Huberman: That's so wild.

DJ Shipley: And I want to dip. Like, I miss it. And as soon as I smell it, I can't do it.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's like, I didn't drink coffee for six months. It's like, I want to drink coffee and then I have no desire. My energy levels are through the roof, like everything is better and like, I kind of just want to be normal again. And it's like slow but surely introduce coffee and whatever else, but you have no addictions. And I was at the bottom of the barrel. I mean, I was taking extreme doses of gabapentin, tramadol, Toradol, everything else and you know, tramadol is not habit forming. Yeah, take it for 12 years and tell me it's not. Like, it most certainly is. And to be able to whitewash all of that gone in one shot, I mean, the doctors told me I was never getting off those meds. Never. Like, if you want to function in society, you have to take these medications for the rest of your life. And I was fine with it. I'm totally good.

DJ Shipley: And then on the backside, you see that it doesn't matter if I was drinking a 12-pack a day or if I was just popping these 60 pills, I was under the influence of something all day, every day, for 15 years. That's not how I want to be. It's not how I want to live my next 40 years. It's like it's really put me in a position where I'm so hyper-aware of everything that I input and then everything that I output. Like, it gives you complete control. And I think some guys just need that breath of fresh air, they need that instant relief to go, "Okay. Okay. I could live with this now." And if you just keep living that positive lifestyle, it'll become your new norm. Right? But you have to really want to change.

DJ Shipley: Yeah. For me, I've never found anything that powerful in my life. Because a lot of guys are scared. They're scared about going down to Mexico and whatever it is. There's a 25-person staff in that house with you. Three paramedics, three RNs. They've got cardiac. They have everybody in there. The chefs in there are amazing. Michelin star quality, the food you eat, and there's indoor swimming pools. There's a Reiki lady in there that will crack your soul open in 15 seconds flat. I never thought Reiki was a thing until she puts her hands on you. Massage therapy, the breath work. I mean, it's a whole holistic approach. Because you've never just allowed yourself to be vulnerable in that position, and once you are, they just start to unravel you so fast. And that medicine's really the catalyst for the whole thing.

DJ Shipley: And once you see what you can be, like, "I can be the same guy that I was. Now, I can just control him." I think that's what a lot of guys lose when they leave the teams. Like, "Well, I built myself into this, because of that. Well, I can't take that with me, so what do I do with this? My wife doesn't want this. I don't want this. My kids can't build a relationship with this. What am I supposed to do now?" And that's when people make those rash decisions is they don't know where to go. And I think that's what's so powerful about the medicine is that's the only thing stronger than the ego you've built up, purpose-built, is that medicine. Yeah, changed my life for sure. It's been great.

Andrew Huberman: Where my mind goes is, you know, people who aren't in the military these days are also really struggling. Also. I can point out. And, you know, the United States in particular, like, we're at a pretty dark moment. It took me a while to actually, like, really internalize that. I was like, "Man." Like, last week, the Charlie Kirk thing, same week or just a few days before, that woman getting killed on the light rail. You've got conflicts all over the world. You've got a ton of domestic unrest. And people have come on this podcast and argued that, you know, in the last century, there were a lot more deaths due to war and this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman: And, you know, statistics are one thing, and they're important, but seeing people murdered in cold blood in either very deliberate or in what seemed like almost kind of random, like, "Okay, there was a person there so he killed her. If it were someone else, they might have killed. Maybe not." Who knows what the motivation was? You know, and to think about how traumas like that, just the pain of the world can be lifted. It's hard to imagine it happening en masse, right? It's hard, and yet I think we all deep down know that that has to happen.

Andrew Huberman: And I think an attention to what young people are exposed to and trying to save them is, you know, the best thing about our species, right? Protect our young. Put them into a world that's better than the way we found it. And at the same time, what you're describing kind of sounds like the medicine, for lack of a better way to put it, that the society and like this kind of global consciousness really needs.

Andrew Huberman: I've said before, and I'll say it again, I think if you look at humans across history, we've always had conflict. We've always created trauma for each other. We've not ever really been perfect, ever. We're not perfect. We're flawed. We're all flawed. I think that's important to remember. And that things will improve over time. Perhaps it's going to be like a sawtooth up into the right kind of graph, but you wonder if there was going to be a massive shift in collective consciousness and people were going to really heal their traumas and really start to see other people differently. Now, that's going to require some very powerful tools.

Andrew Huberman: And I just can't help but think there is no magic solution. People have to want to change and on and on, but the ibogaine sounds like a special tool, different than the other psychedelics, because of the amount of attention and detail that's required to keep people safe while they do it, you need, you know, heart monitoring and it's a medical treatment in many ways.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I think we should probably talk about it and frame it that way going forward. It's a medical treatment. The word psychedelic is a very loaded phrase and it's one of the things that I worry about, in terms of trying to get ibogaine and other treatments implemented more broadly, in the same way that when about 10 years ago we would think about breath work and I wanted to study respiration physiology in my lab. Calling it respiration physiology, you know, we have a clinical trial that we published on that. If we called it breath work, it's kind of wacky. You call it respiration physiology, which is also true, people are more willing to embrace it.

Andrew Huberman: So, these to me are neuroplasticity tools to help rewire one's brain for the better and I am very hopeful that what you've done... I mean, again, thank you. You know, it's like, you know, we always thank people for their service, but here now you've got people that served who are now going into this highly novel, at least for Americans, treatment to help cure trauma and addiction and you guys are first in.

DJ Shipley: Right.

Andrew Huberman: And Marcus and Amber are, you know, early and first in. And people will argue, you know, these things have been around for a long time in native cultures, and in jungles. And I will say, just like meditation, just like yoga nidra, just like hydrotherapy, light therapy, it's exactly because it's been shrouded in complicated language that it isn't more broadly implemented. And I'm willing to say that a thousand times over. If we truly care about people, we don't care what it's called. Sure, we want to pay respect to people that developed these things long ago, but enough is enough. Like, it's not about getting credit, it's about getting it out there.

DJ Shipley: And you're exactly right. When you say psychedelics, everybody automatically labels it a certain way. And one of the best quotes I've ever heard is we gave ibogaine to my buddy, Matty, and he woke up next day and he goes, "There is nothing recreational about that." Nope, like, there isn't.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Terrifying.

DJ Shipley: It can be. Some people wake up and it's bliss the entire time and I'm so glad you have that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

DJ Shipley: But if you were laying in Stanford right now, and you gave me ibogaine, hooked up the heart rate monitors, you were running a study, they wouldn't bat an eyelid. Be like, "Oh, yeah. It's the same thing."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You have the same people around you, they're taking detailed notes, everything you say, I mean, you might as well be at a clinic.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You are. It's in a beautiful house, beautiful staff, and the entire thing, but that's what it is. This is a treatment. This is not a bunch of guys eating, smoking, doing whatever, peyote in the middle of the desert. It's not what that is.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: This is a very structured thing, because you have some serious trauma. I think a lot of people label it like, "Oh, this is for guys with PTSD." I didn't go down there for PTSD. I went down there for whatever I've turned into, I was trying to get rid of that. And I'll tell you before, nothing in my military career has ever come up. None of it. That's not what haunts me. That's not what plagues me at night. It's not what keeps me up till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. That's not that. And I've resolved all the things that was troubling me. And it's because that medicine's so powerful. I just hope more people will get ahold of it. And I think if we had the right people putting out the right message on the right platforms, people would get ahold of it. So many people want to hear hate speech.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Like, negativity goes a lot more than positivity a lot of the times because people hang onto that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's like, you know, I read something, they were talking about the best public speakers in human history, and Hitler was in the top five. And you're like, well, just imagine if he was preaching positivity. He could've turned that entire country and really given them something to hang onto. He just didn't. And you wish that he would've been preaching the Gospel. You wish he would've been preaching love and kindness for all of humanity, and then what would've happened in World War II wouldn't have happened.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, humans have an appetite for that anger. There's a famous experiment by a guy named Robert Heath, he was a neuroscientist, a neurosurgeon, and very controversial guy for all sorts of reasons. But he ran an experiment on humans where he was in the brain stimulating different brain areas, and he would implant little electrodes, these are in humans, and people had the opportunity then later to stimulate different brain areas. And different brain areas, when stimulated, evoke different subjective experiences. So, they'd hit a lever, they'd feel kind of drunk. Hit another lever, they'd feel sexual arousal. Hit another lever, they'd feel laughter. Others, they'd feel, well, less well.

Andrew Huberman: Do you know the number one brain area? There weren't many subjects in this, it's a difficult experiment to do, but the number one brain area that these subjects all wanted to hit again and again and again was an area of what's called the midline thalamus that evokes feelings of mild anger and frustration. It's linked to the dopamine system, and it's associated with drive, and it's what we learn, if we're adaptive, to funnel into creating things, building things, doing things. But it's very clear that we are hardwired to be pulled into environments and discourses that evoke anger.

Andrew Huberman: I feel like anger and numbing out are the two most dangerous things. And look, I love social media, teach on social media, but being online makes it very easy to feel anger and to numb out. And, you know, it's the ultimate drug really to offer that, in my opinion.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And then there's this other lane of life, right, which is harder to access, where the real richness is, where the real stuff is, where real meaning comes from, where time doesn't just disappear, and where you build things that are lasting and that if I die in 10 seconds, I'll know that I'd spent some time in that lane or enough to know that, like, that's where the really good stuff is. And it's a bit more difficult or a lot more difficult to access, but that's real life.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And the rest is a game that's being played on us that takes advantage of some hard wiring that I wish didn't exist, but it exists in all of us. And I think if we knew that that existed in all of us, just like we have a appetite for sugar, you know, it's hardwired, that we would make better choices.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: So, I'm so glad that you've done ibogaine and DMT in that setting, and that you guys are getting the message out there. And I don't know what the broader implementation looks like, but I like to think that with collaboration with Nolan, what's happening with Veteran Solutions, Ambio, and other clinics like it, and really good, for once, really good politicians on both sides of the aisle arguing for this, I'm hopeful.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: I fully support my tax dollars going to the expansion of this. I really do.

DJ Shipley: They've been spending a lot of time in the Beltway getting funding, you know, clinical trials, research, doing the entire thing, and they've got a whole coalition now. Navy SEAL Foundation stepped up, the Green Beret Foundation, I think might be the Recon Foundation and Wounded Warrior Project, they all came to a coalition. They're all going to get behind this and all kind of push the exact same message. Let's get the funding, let's get the research, let's prove that it works, and hopefully bring it to the U.S. Like, if we have to start with the veterans, because it's a smaller population, less than 1% of the population.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Let's target them.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Let's get first responders and let's open this thing up and, you know, Marcus is doing a lot to really beat that war drum, and I'm just so thankful. And one of the things he said when we went down there, because you don't realize how palpable toxicity is. Like, you want to be hateful sometimes, and they're like, "Hurt people hurt people." You've been hurt and now you want someone else to feel that exact same thing, so when you see something hateful on social media, what's the first thing you do? You go to the comments section and you read. "Yep, I feel that too. I like that comment. I'm going to comment underneath it. Yep. Yep." You just start to project that hate over and over and over again.

DJ Shipley: If I look at it, I'm not going to get involved in that. Actually, I'm just going to unfollow this person, because every time I see you, you're saying something hateful. Slow but sure, it's getting out of that toxicity. It allows the best form of you to continue to go forward. But, yeah, I mean, you have to protect your peace. You got to surround yourself with positive people that are better than you that want to try to drag you up that hill, and thank God for people like that, because, man, I mean, if you haven't been there, if you have not been that only guy on the island alone, because I mean, I often say I was the first guy in the SEAL teams to suffer with depression, anxiety, and suicide ideation, because I had never heard of it before. Right?

DJ Shipley: So, I'm in my living room. My wife's not there, and we talk about dogs. One of the number one reasons I never did it was when I would get to the point where I had made up my mind, that dog would walk in that room and drop his head on my lap and look at me. It's like, "Oh. Not today." I'd get up and I'd go on a walk with the dog.

Andrew Huberman: With your Japanese Mastiff?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Amazing breed, folks. I just learned about it today. I absolutely want one of these. What is the proper name?

DJ Shipley: Tosa Inu.

Andrew Huberman: They are beautiful beasts.

DJ Shipley: They are amazing. Yeah, so my wife's first husband, Danny, they had a Japanese Mastiff and an Old English Bulldog, so when he passed, I met Patsy three years later, those are the dogs I inherited, and you couldn't pick a better dog breed. It was the most beautiful dog I've ever seen. It looked like a Bengal tiger. I mean, 200 pounds, but a gentle giant. But one of those things when you walk in the house and that thing sees you, your heart just goes to 180, you're like, "I'm so happy to be home and see this dog right now." It's like it pulls you out of a depression.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I mean, therapy dogs are a real thing, and you know, shout out to the Red Cross. I didn't know what the Red Cross did in, you know, 2020. Like, what do you do? They bring in dogs in the hospital beds is what they do for sure. They did it for me. And there's nothing like laying in a hospital bed, you've been throwing up for a week, and you don't have your cellphone. You can't call your wife, and they bring in some giant Saint Bernard that jumps into bed with you, and it is heaven on earth. It is. It's like that little bit gets you through the hump.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: "What do you bring me tomorrow?" It's like, "We got some Cocker Spaniels." Like, "Bring him in here. I don't care what it is now." It's like I just need, I need a dog. I need something that makes me feel better. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Dogs are amazing.

DJ Shipley: They are.

Andrew Huberman: An Old English Bulldog, just like Costello there. I mean, those are my people, my creatures.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I just might get a Japanese Mastiff.

DJ Shipley: You should.

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk about your standards.

DJ Shipley: Mm.

Andrew Huberman: I've heard you say, "Worst situation is being a big fish in a small pond."

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Not many people say that. Let's talk about standards, first starting with physical standards, and let's actually get back to the program just briefly.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned the five-day-a-week program. A little while ago, I saw you put out a fit test, basically, that's designed to be done any time, no preparation, after you've done... It's GBRS?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Is your program. I'm going to sign up for this. This is not a promotional. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to pay full price. I'm going to insist on paying full price like everyone else. I'm doing this because I turn 50 in about a week, and I want to stay fit going forward, and let me see if I got this right. It involves a broad jump, some pull-ups, some push-ups. Will you walk us through what the test is and what the program actually provides? Because I know a lot of people listening are already exercising and are attached to their program, right?

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Guys are like, "I want more lower bicep, rear delt stuff," but this is different.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: This is about all-around functional fitness at any age, men or women.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So, what's the program?

DJ Shipley: So, we started that program as like a recovery from injury, right? I'm just trying to maintain a high standard. I've had a high standard physically since I was 17, right? I've gotten better. I've had really, really high points and low points, coming back from injury, but I wanted something to be able to maintain a high standard. And when we got out, you start working with SWAT teams, SEAL teams, every team in between, firemen, and everybody else, and it's such a physical component that cannot be ignored. But so many people in the '80s, '90s, even the early 2000s, like, "Good is good enough." Like, have you ever seen the show "Rescue Me?"

Andrew Huberman: Mm-mm.

DJ Shipley: Dennis Leary and a bunch of guys, a bunch of firemen in New York, and they had the fat firemen, big handlebar mustaches. You had the young guys, and you see all this stuff. And now if you look at the majority of firemen, they look like professional... They look like CrossFitters. Like, they're in shape because they understand we've got so much data on human potential and how to get there: nutrition, sleep, recovery, training protocols. And they realize that you are your first lifeline. Your physical vessel is the thing you can get in the airport through TSA. I can get it in the White House. I don't need to bring any tools with me. This is a really, really good tool, and it's always with me if I keep it at a high level.

DJ Shipley: So, we're going through here and, you know, the majority of the military screen tests and SWAT teams, it's all body weight. Push-ups, pull-ups, running. The SEAL teams and special operations swim test, and that's about it. You'll do O courses and some other stuff, but the majority of it, that's just what it is. Well, it's not reality. You don't walk around, there's no weigh-in. You don't walk in in a pair of board shorts and weigh in. I mean, you're wearing body armor, helmets, you know, pano night vision. Like, it's a lot of heavy stuff you have to carry, so you're always under an extreme load. But the physical standard was so high as a tier one level. I mean, the entire force is, but you have to maintain such a high level because everybody else is around you.

DJ Shipley: So, when I'm looking at all these SWAT team guys, I'm like, "If you had a physical standard every SWAT team in the country held, if the lowest dude on the team could pass this test, the top guys are at this super elite level. You're so well-rounded, you can solve anything physically." And that's one of the big things in the military is you never want to have to say no. "Can you 25 guys get up over this mountain and assault that target by 0400 in the morning?" If it can be done physically, we can do it, no matter what. We'll find a way. Move heaven and earth, we'll get it done. It's really, really hard to make a good decision on the backside when you are so physically taxed, because no decision you're ever going to make is without being under extreme duress. If we elevate the physical standard, we can make better mental. I mean, we can. We can make better decisions through mental clarity when we're not just sucking wind.

Andrew Huberman: Also true very much so in civilian life.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Right?

DJ Shipley: Everywhere. Like, EMTs, I mean, business, entrepreneurship.

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Andrew Huberman: School teachers.

DJ Shipley: School teachers.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Everybody. Right? If you're not physically labored, you can make better decisions, so that's the whole goal. I don't care if you're a 45-year-old fireman that has an extra 35 pounds of weight on you, or if you're a 19-year-old kid who's in their prime, if you have to run up ten flights of stairs carrying that hose, when you get to the top, execute a good decision. The guy whose heart rate isn't at 180 is going to make a better decision. They just are, and we all know it.

DJ Shipley: So, let's set a standard that, you know, I don't care if it's Wednesday, if it's 2:00 in the morning on a Saturday, if you spring out of bed and take this test, you should be able to pass it no matter what. Now, what level are we trying to adhere? As high as humanly possible. If I hit the elite standard right now, in three weeks I should hit the elite again. If I start to taper off, why? Lack of sleep, poor nutrition, you know, just really crazy op tempo, I'm in the red the whole time. Okay, maybe I need to take a couple days off, get back on my training plan to maintain that high level, but we do a broad jump, so power output on the floor in a dynamic fashion, landing, proprioception.

Andrew Huberman: So, just have people stand on a line, jump as far forward as they possibly can.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: And the lowest standard is your height.

DJ Shipley: ... your height, right? So, if I'm six foot tall, I should be able to broad jump past 6 foot.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: What's the next level up from that?

DJ Shipley: 1 foot.

Andrew Huberman: 1 foot past your height?

DJ Shipley: Yep. So, 7 feet would be, you know, middle of the road.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: If I can jump 8 feet, that's really the standard. Like, for me, I'm trying to get to a 10-foot broad jump.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Like, I want to hit 10 feet, and I want to hold that as long as humanly possible.

Andrew Huberman: And you can swing your arms,  no running start, but you just swing your arms forward, jump as-

DJ Shipley: Yep.

DJ Shipley: Swing your arms,  jump, feet low to the ground, dynamic fashion. And I always tell the guys, "In reality, you are not going to have time to negotiate the obstacle.

Andrew Huberman: Yep.

DJ Shipley: You are not going to be able to run up to that ditch and stop and look at it and go, "Okay, I need to get... I need to back it up a little bit." You're going to have to go.

DJ Shipley: As a cop chasing this kid down in the city park, you're going to have to scale that 8-foot fence right now. Not look for a step stool, not, "Oh, what can I climb on to get over this?" You're going to have to hit that thing at full value and go up and over it.

DJ Shipley: You should have the physical ability to do that. So, we have a broad jump. And a lot of people, Vernon has a really good thing about monkey bars.

DJ Shipley: Like, everybody was swinging on monkey bars when you were a kid, and at a certain point in adulthood, you stop doing it. But you'll look at your kid, nine years old, swinging on a monkey bar, just like, "Oh, you're doing it wrong. Do it this way."

DJ Shipley: Well, jump up there and show them. If you haven't been on monkey bars in 40 years, expect to be humbled really, really fast.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's like, you use it or lose it. It's going to happen. So, we're always trying to test ourselves, like, what is going to make me a dynamic participant throughout the whole process? Broad jump's a really good expression.

DJ Shipley: We have that. In the SEAL teams, we had a legacy test, it was a body weight bench press. NFL, it's a 225 bench press. It's not fair for me to give 225 to a kid that weighs 160 pounds, so-

Andrew Huberman: Or a 140-pound woman or a 50-pound woman. Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

DJ Shipley: Your body weight, though. And we go minimum standard, 10 repetitions.

Andrew Huberman: 10 repetition single set with your body weight.

DJ Shipley: Yep. That's minimum standard. 15, next level up. 20 plus is elite. If you can bench press your body weight 20 times, you are in top tier.

Andrew Huberman: This is full range of movement. Bar touches your chest, you're pressing out, all the way to straight arm.

DJ Shipley: All the way. So, 20 reps on that. Pull-ups with no weight. And we do that because so many guys have so many injuries. So many shoulder injuries.

DJ Shipley: And if your technique isn't there and you're dropping out of the hole, I don't want you to dislocate and jam up a shoulder. So, pull-ups are in there. We have a farmer's carry.

Andrew Huberman: How many pull-ups, are the-

DJ Shipley: 10, 15, and 20 plus.

Andrew Huberman: So, 10 with your body weight, 15 is the next level up, and then 20 plus is elite. Okay.

DJ Shipley: Twenty after that.

DJ Shipley: Yep. And in a perfect world, we do it with weight. In the SEAL teams, we add weight to it. But for everybody, if you can do 20 straight dead hang pull-ups, you're at the top of the physical game, this lesson.

Andrew Huberman: No kip. Chin clears the bar.

DJ Shipley: Chin clears the bar.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: We do a farmer's carry. So, with your body weight, so if you weigh 200 pounds, you have a 100-pound dumbbell in each hand. You get up and you walk it as far as you can. I'd have to look at the exact feet measurement, but I think the elite is almost 300 feet.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: 275 and 250, somewhere around there. And it's not an easy thing to do, but we work so much grip for the pull-ups and everything else. Like, grip matters. We say that a lot.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's very hard to climb up a caving ladder on the side of a cruise ship when it's underway. Your grip's the only thing that's going to get you there, so we really put a lot of focus on gripping.

DJ Shipley: Firemen need it. Cops need it. If I'm trying to manipulate a full-grown man through time and space against their will, your grip is a key factor in that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You ask anybody who grapples. When somebody who grapples, and they know how to use it, grabs ahold of you, you instantly know you're in a world of hurt.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You grab some NCAA wrestler, and he grabs a hold of you, the first thing you feel is his hands. "Oh, no. I'm just grabbing a hold of a grizzly bear right now, this is not going to be good." We need everybody to have that same strength.

Andrew Huberman: Also, someone's got to open the pickle jar.

DJ Shipley: Exactly. Got to be able to open the pickle jar. But when you pick up that weight, everything's in it. Your core's in there. Your posture really matters, upright. I've got to be able to control my breathing, ocular focus. Where am I looking?

DJ Shipley: And then how long can I hold onto this? So, I've got to keep a rigid frame. I can't lean over and let it take control of me. I can't lean back. I've got to be present throughout the entire movement, and then just push. So, we've got that. We've got a trap bar deadlift.

DJ Shipley: We use the trap bar because the majority of guys in that career, they've already got some injuries stacked up. And we actually put 45-pound bumper plates to pull from a little bit of an elevation because I've got a really long torso.

DJ Shipley: And the big thing we push in that program is we want you to be able to train 52 weeks out of the year. There is no off-season for a fireman. There's no off-season for a SWAT team guy. There's no off-season for an Army Ranger.

DJ Shipley: And if you get jammed up in the gym, and I've done it really bad, the mission doesn't care. You have to go anyway. And now you're not at 100%. And the entire patrol in, you're thinking about your lower back and if you're going to be able to perform on target.

DJ Shipley: We can't have that. We're trying to increase your confidence, never decrease it. So, that's why we pull from that. That is one and a half times your body weight is the minimum standard.

Andrew Huberman: For how many repetitions?

DJ Shipley: Five.

Andrew Huberman: One and a half times your body weight? Okay.

DJ Shipley: And then two times your body weight, and I think it's two and a half times your body weight is the elite, for a set of five. You know, you can obviously do more. I think I did a set of 12 in that video. But it's just-

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: ... can I pick up double body weight under control without slamming on the ground, proper form, in control the entire time? So, we add in all those.

DJ Shipley: So, the broad jump, the farmer's carry, the body weight bench, the pull-ups, the trap bar deadlift, and we have an 800-meter run.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: We also have a plank for time. So, a minute and a half, two minutes... No, it's two minutes, two and a half minutes, and three minutes, so I'm-

Andrew Huberman: Just on the forearms, the planking?

DJ Shipley: Yep.

DJ Shipley: However you want to hold it.

DJ Shipley: And we were going to do sit-ups originally, but sit-ups is such a hip flexor-dominant position. Because I have that long torso, if I don't anchor my feet, 50 sit-ups is really, really hard for me. And how do you gauge it? Are your hands interlocked behind your back?

DJ Shipley: There's a whole bunch of different ways to cheat it. It's very hard to cheat a plank. But your core is so important. And that's something Vernon got me doing. I had a lot of lower back injuries, as we all do. I started walking around with my core at, like, 40 to 50% flexed all day, every day.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: My lower back issues went away instantly. So, I walk around with a little bit of tension all day long. Just imagine walking around the pool with your shirt off. A little bit of tension in your abs, and it protects my lower back. So, we always say be an active participant throughout the entire movement.

DJ Shipley: I'm never going to let my core go to jello because then my lower back will spasm. Everything is locked in, everything's in control, my intensity's there, my focus is there, and I've blocked out all the stray voltage. So we get through that, and then we do an 800-meter run.

DJ Shipley: I wanted to do 400-meter repeats, do a 400, stop, as long as it took you to run, execute another one in the same amount of time.

DJ Shipley: Well, the SWAT team, they have an 800-meter run. We're like, "Well, since you already do it, I don't need a guy that can run a marathon.

DJ Shipley: I need a guy that can throw a 200-pound guy over his shoulders, run him up 10 flights of stairs, and make a good decision." So, being a marathon runner, while it might be great for you, it doesn't really give me everything I need.

DJ Shipley: I really need that hybrid athlete. And that 800 meter, I didn't realize, and then I talked to everybody who's a distance runner, the 800 is brutal.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: It's too fast to fully sprint and you can't slow down because that time metric, I think, is 3:15, three minutes, and 2:45 to be the elite. So, I think I'm in, like, the 2:40 range right now, but I haven't run it since I snapped my hip.

DJ Shipley: Other than sprints, I don't distance run because it hurts my hip too bad. But I'm able to get through it. I've got a laundry list of injuries and we did that entire test cold bore.

DJ Shipley: We basically wrote it down and the whole thing, when I sat down with Vernon, I was like, "I need something to drive to." I do better when there's a target goal on the wall. Like two years ago, it was a 400-pound bench press.

DJ Shipley: I have never been able to bench press 400 pounds, I've missed it every time, my shoulders are all blown out. And I was like, "With all the injuries, I want to press 400 pounds one time before I hang it up forever."

DJ Shipley: We train the entire year, hit 407, re-racked it. Now what? I need to hold a high standard. And what is it?

DJ Shipley: Well, if I was on a SEAL team or a SWAT team and every dude could pass that test, we have a physical dynasty, because not everyone can. But it gives you something. You'd look at me and it's like, "I've got a laundry list of injuries, dude. I'm on the wrong side of 40 right now.

DJ Shipley: I've never taken my foot off the gas. And neither should you. You're 22 years old, you should be running circles around me. And if you're not, just because you don't care enough." Like no one has slapped you, and that's the whole concept of Be a Pro.

DJ Shipley: Everything I'm doing is putting me in position to be the best version of myself because the team deserves it. Everything I do, everything I say, everything I represent should be putting the group in a better position.

DJ Shipley: And for us, because it's such a dangerous job, your physical readiness, it can't be ignored. That is the one thing that everyone should be able to count on.

DJ Shipley: And they should look at you. Well, I know John cares. Look at him, he didn't wake up like that. That dude is in the gym five days a week because he wants to be the best fireman he can possibly be.

DJ Shipley: And that's what we push out. And the standard has been great. I mean, a lot of guys get super humbled by him, and you know some guys lie because I see their numbers, like, "There's no way you did that," but it keeps them honest.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, I looked at those numbers. I mean, I think most people who've been training regularly will find that maybe two or three of the things come naturally to them-

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: ... and others are difficult, because everyone's got different- Like, I have a really short torso, long arms, so certain things are easier, certain things are harder. Like-

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: ... I think that's what I really like about it, it's spread out across the table so that no one person can dominate just by virtue of some previous sport history or natural proclivity based on body shape or something.

Andrew Huberman: How often are you having people self-test on this?

DJ Shipley: We tell the guys whenever they're ready. We did a 12-week block on it, and I've been traveling a lot, so haven't really been able to retest. We're coming up on it in maybe the next two weeks or so.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Going to retest just to see where it's at. But that was the interesting thing is, I called back to the command, to our strength conditioning coaches, and I pulled out all my scores from a test that's very, very similar, body weight bench, max pull-ups, did the whole thing.

DJ Shipley: My numbers now, 15 years later, some are better than they were when I was in my 20s.

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

DJ Shipley: And it's like, I'm not training for that.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: This is just the program. It keeps me at a super high level. And we had a doctor from Duke University come down and do some CQB testing on me, and we had to test VO2 max.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I haven't trained for VO2 max in 20 years, and my VO2 max is still on the top 0.0001% of the Earth. All the elite athletes, "I don't train VO2 max."

DJ Shipley: And my breathing is so inefficient, and that's what he laughed about. You're ultra sounding my diaphragm, and he's like, "Your breathing's terrible.

DJ Shipley: But it translates to where your VO2 max is awesome." He's like, "You can live forever. That's how we determine how long you're going to live for is VO2 max, and your VO2 max is through the roof."

DJ Shipley: I don't train it. If you just do the program, maintain it consistently, it'll give you such a well-rounded approach to everything. And that's the big thing is I don't want to have to say no.

DJ Shipley: "Hey, can you pick that up?" Yeah. "Can you jump over that?" Yeah. "Can you move that out of the way?" Yep. "Can you move him through time and space?" Yep.

Andrew Huberman: Also helps because you have kids and they, you know-

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: ... swimming, playing, running around. And also setting a high standard within the family.

Andrew Huberman: You know, I think there are always two sides to the fitness/nutrition conversation.

Andrew Huberman: One is, I'll just say it, I feel like the standards in the United States have drifted so far in terms of what we consider healthy, what we're willing to accept.

Andrew Huberman: My dad, who is not, he's a first-generation immigrant here, I'll never forget, in the, I think it was in the mid '90s or something, he said to me, he said, "You know, today I went..." He was talking about himself, he said, "I went to the movies and I saw people in pajamas."

Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "People go to the movies now as if they just woke up, in their slippers and pajamas."

Andrew Huberman: And I said, "Oh, yeah?" And he said, "This is the beginning of the end."

Andrew Huberman: He said, "Because when that slips, then pretty soon it's like, you're willing to tolerate things on the street, then people aren't weeding their lawns, and then pretty soon, it just breeds this general disinterest in taking care of things."

Andrew Huberman: And then, I can't link it directly to people going to the movies in their pajamas, but...

Andrew Huberman: And everyone likes to be comfortable, so, yeah, I don't think he was saying everyone should avoid wearing sweatpants, but I think what he was saying is, you know, etiquette and self-care and self-respect is projected outward. So that's one side of it, right?

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: 35% of the United States is obese, not just overweight, but obese. On the other side is the opportunity, right? So it's always good to think about the opportunity.

Andrew Huberman: And, the program that you're offering, it clearly is great for first responders and people with high-intensity, high-demand work.

Andrew Huberman: But the reason I'm interested in it is because I want to be fit for the next 50 years, and so I'm going to try it because I want to train to be able to do these things when I'm 70 or 80 or 90.

Andrew Huberman: I figure if I get out that far, it's kind of like, "How could I possibly do it then?" Well, by doing it every day until then, right? That's obvious. The solution's obvious. So is this a program that women, men,-

DJ Shipley: Everybody's on it.

Andrew Huberman: ... anyone could do? And the training doesn't just center around these movements?

DJ Shipley: No, no, no.

Andrew Huberman: It centers around the five-day-a-week program.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

Andrew Huberman: And my understanding is there's tutorial in there. Like, you get some support. Because I think this is really what's missing from most online programs.

DJ Shipley: All the support.

Andrew Huberman: Because anyone can go to YouTube or look online and go, "You know, what's the..." We even have a foundational fitness protocol. It's what I've been doing for the last 30-something years, and I'm starting to modify that now based on the GBRS and this fit test.

Andrew Huberman: But it's a whole other thing to have support and have people working with you, because this is about not being the only fish in the pond.

DJ Shipley: One of the things that program does better than anything else I've ever seen is, there's probably 800 to 1,000 movement tutorials. They're either guided by me, with Vernon doing all the coaching cues, "Big toe down. Feel this. Roll this hip over. You'll feel this."

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: He navigates it so well verbally and physically. You can watch him. He'll manipulate me, demonstrating exactly what you'll feel and touch. Then the message board on the back side.

DJ Shipley: So when you finish the workout, everybody else who's done that workout, all, you know, thousands of people, they comment on how they're feeling.

DJ Shipley: And he'll read them. He's like, "Hey, guys. Looks like everybody's getting a little fatigued after the last couple of weeks, after this power block we just did. Hey, we're going to taper off for the next five days.

DJ Shipley: We're going to regroup, and the following Monday, we're going to push, and this is what we're going to do." So he'll sprinkle in more running.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: You know, when summertime comes around, we'll start to add on a little bit more, but we add in 20-minute walks every day so everybody gets them right after you leave. I steal a bunch of stuff from you.

DJ Shipley: Like, shit can of sunglasses, let's get some vitamin D, straighten your eyes first thing in the morning, set circadian rhythm. I do the same thing at night. It's like, they've all been saying the same thing, man.

DJ Shipley: If you just make it part of your routine, and Schwarzenegger says it too. Like, "Hey, did you work out yesterday?" "Uh-huh. I'm going to work out tomorrow and the next day. I brush my teeth twice a day too. I'm going to continue doing it.

DJ Shipley: It's part of my routine, and I'm not going to miss it." I've been doing this, and I haven't missed a session for six years, and I am not going to miss one tomorrow. Why would I? You're seeing what it's doing for me.

DJ Shipley: I mean, I've got a laundry list of injuries, and I'm still able to perform at a super high level because I'm not taking my foot off the gas. There's nothing magical about me. I'm the most normal dude you'll ever meet.

DJ Shipley: But I mean, we have 65, 70-year-olds on that program. And if you can't do one, if you have a limitation, so do we. You can do a drop-down menu, and there'll be 40 different exercises to pick from.

DJ Shipley: So if I go to a hotel gym, I don't have it, very first thing I do. I walk down, I scan the whole thing, I send it to Vernon. He's like, "Ooh. Only dumbbells to 50, huh?" It's like, "Yeah." And he'll send me a workout.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Or I'll just drop down the menu. Like, "Okay, well, because today's my leg day, I'm actually going to do Friday's workout, and I'll shift Thursday because I'll be home at my home gym. I'll do Thursday's workout on Friday."

DJ Shipley: Get playful with it.

Andrew Huberman: So it's flexible.

DJ Shipley: Oh, it's flexible.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's so important. I mean, I think really, standards are what we all need for ourselves, and standards are what, honestly, I think this country needs.

Andrew Huberman: And it's tricky because within this new administration, the whole notion of MAHA quickly got kind of stained by the politicizing of the motives and all that.

Andrew Huberman: In the end, people need to eat better, train better, and there are real medical issues out there people are contending with. But just imagine if people actually started to take their physical body seriously.

Andrew Huberman: You know, this is something I really want to, I'm going to say it again later, but I want to say it now very clearly.

Andrew Huberman: One thing that I think is so absolutely clear from everything you said about your backstory, where you're at now,

Andrew Huberman: the ibogaine work, your care for first responders, your care for your teammates, your family, is that you take yourself seriously.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So for you, it's a yeah. I think most people take their feelings seriously. They take their responses to what's going on in their life seriously.

Andrew Huberman: You know, at the center of our consciousness, a previous guest said, is our ego, the us, the me. We're all like that to some extent.

Andrew Huberman: But taking oneself seriously as a form of self-respect and building up one's ability to support others and to do important things for other people in our life, our family, and for the world,

Andrew Huberman: is so key, and I feel like taking oneself seriously is the cornerstone of everything I've heard you say today and everything you're doing. That it's not taking a feeling in a moment seriously.

Andrew Huberman: In fact, sometimes it's about doing that, and sometimes it's about going, "No. I'm going to push that aside, and I'm going to brush my teeth. I'm going to lean into that. I'm going to do... not do what I prefer to do in the moment so that I can really show up." But that we need to take ourselves seriously.

DJ Shipley: Yep.

DJ Shipley: You do. You have to, and I have this big thing I do. I've been asked to do a lot of motivational speaking lately and a lot of that, and I tell this story about a kid that grows up wanting to be a fireman and how he got inspired by a fireman,

DJ Shipley: because that guy was a physical representation of what that kid thought a fireman would be.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: Look the part, act the part, he's heroic, he might as well put a red cape on this kid and send him through the door. I mean, that's what it is, but that's you representing everything you think a fireman should be, not just what you say, what you wear, how you speak.

DJ Shipley: Do everything. So for me, anybody who I meet, I'm giving you both barrels right now because I am trying to live

DJ Shipley: the actual life that I think I should be living, that translates all the positive stuff I'm trying to put out.

DJ Shipley: If you saw me and I was 50 pounds overweight, at a bar, drinking my twelfth beer, talking about mental health, you wouldn't take me serious.

Andrew Huberman: Talking about how you were a Navy SEAL back when.

DJ Shipley: That does nothing for them.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: It's like, that's not how I identify. Yeah a did that job and, yeah, you think that gives me credibility. I don't care about that a bit. That doesn't give me credibility.

DJ Shipley: The way I live my life now, my daily routine gives me the credibility, because no matter who you are, you can adopt that same lifestyle, that same routine.

DJ Shipley: You can grab it as a housewife. You can wake up early and go out and do a 20-minute walk every single morning before your kids wake up. You're just refusing to do it. I don't know why.

DJ Shipley: But I promise you, if every single person ever watches this, you wake up and do a 20-minute walk in the morning and one after dinner, and you do it for seven days, on the eighth day the world doesn't fall apart.

DJ Shipley: It only gets better the more you do it. It just will. People just don't want to put in the work. They want this quick fix. They want Ozempic. They want this.

Andrew Huberman: Or they're saying, and I hear this, and it's trickier for me because I'm late to the game on kids and family, but mark my words. But in your case, you've already had kids.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: You got a wife. You have a functioning family and a very busy, demanding career, and a previous career that carries with it incredible experiences but also challenges that you're resolving now and you've resolved, and you have a mission in the world.

Andrew Huberman: And so a lot of times I'll hear people say, "Well, that's easy for you to say because you don't have kids." And then I'm kind of muted at that moment, and I want to respond and say,

Andrew Huberman: "Listen, when I was a graduate student, I worked 100 hours a week," but I was in my 20s and I didn't have kids, so I have very little ammunition there.

Andrew Huberman: In your case, however, you have kids and you're getting up and you're doing two 20-minute walks, and you're including your family in these practices too.

Andrew Huberman: You said your evening walks with your wife are a crucial part of your connection.

DJ Shipley: If anyone is struggling with building that bridge, especially guys transitioning out of the military or a career, you watch it with Tom Brady and everybody else, when they leave the thing they were put on this earth to do, there is a fall from grace that can't be ignored, and most of the time that splits with the wife, right?

DJ Shipley: Like the person you are now, she's not used to you being home, and now you don't have anything. If you are struggling to rebuild that connection with your wife, with your partner, that 20-minute walk has saved my marriage. I have given it to thousands of people.

DJ Shipley: That right there, if I could give everybody a gift, the power of that 20-minute walk. It's changed my whole life, man. That is the one constant thing I don't compromise on.

DJ Shipley: I mean, even to the point where, as dumb as it may be when I'm walking through the Atlanta airport, I don't get on the little conveyor belt. I'm not doing that. I'll walk from Terminal E all the way to Terminal A because it's a 20-minute power push.

DJ Shipley: I do it, and I film it on social media. I'm getting my steps in no matter what. I'm not on my phone. I'm showing you you can find the time.

DJ Shipley: Instead of sitting there at Starbucks for 45 minutes waiting on my flight, I'll just walk back and forth. I just got a 40-minute walk in straight. I'm good. So when I get back home, it's 2:30 in the morning, I don't feel guilty I haven't done anything physical today.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: I wake up in the morning, 5:00 AM, and I gear it up and I spin it again, so you can find the time rarely. You have to make the time.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: If you're waiting for it just to pop up and be like, "Oh, here's a free 20-minute block," you're not going to have it, and people just... That's the thing I can't get past. They're like, "Oh, you know, I can't wake up that early."

DJ Shipley: You have a $1,000 smartphone that does anything. There's not a question you can ask it it doesn't have the answer to, and there's a clock on it. If you set it, it'll go off.

DJ Shipley: When it goes off, get out of bed. Like I've been doing it my whole life. I don't understand it. They just don't want to. They've never felt the power of being in control of the small things.

DJ Shipley: Why stack up the micro wins? Lay out your clothes the night before. I mean, how many people wake up 20 minutes before they're supposed to leave the door just frantic like, "Where's my black shirt? Where's my black shirt? Ooh, where are my shoes? Where are my car keys?" Like that's a terrible way to start the day-

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: ... but you're the one who's doing that. If you just spend 10 minutes the night before, take your shower, lay out the clothes, put them in the logical order you're about to get them dressed in next morning, and go, you'd be surprised how fast you're actually making a cup of coffee.

DJ Shipley: You're like, "Man, I did my entire morning routine in less than five minutes." Mm-hmm. What do I do with my next 40? Whatever you want. Do 10 minutes of meditation.

DJ Shipley: Sit there in a dark room and just tell yourself 10 things you're truly grateful for. Like, "I am so glad I have my wife.

DJ Shipley: I'm so glad I have two healthy kids. I'm so glad I have a company. I'm so glad I have two arms and two legs. I'm so glad I'm still alive." Cool. What are you going to do? "I'm going to make the most out of it." Go to work and do that.

DJ Shipley: People just don't want to make the time because they've never seen the example. So a lot of stuff we try to put out is I'm trying to be a physical representation of what I'm trying to mass produce.

DJ Shipley: Physically strong, mentally resilient, capable, patriotic Americans, that's what I'm trying to do. I just want you to have accountability.

DJ Shipley: I've accounted for all my failures, all my successes, and everything else in between, and I'll show them exactly what happens when you do it wrong.

DJ Shipley: And I think that's what a lot of people like the most about it, is I will tell you all my deepest, darkest secrets because you're going to learn a lot more from those than you are about climbing Everest. Like everybody wants to see the picture at the top of the mountain.

DJ Shipley: They don't want to hear about how many Sherpas you lost on the way to the top. They don't want to hear about that. I do. I want to hear about the real struggle, like how hard is it to be you? Talk me through it.

DJ Shipley: I can learn so much from the hardships of people, and just unfortunately, we're in a place now where not too many people are willing to share it. But, yeah, just trying to help out as many people as possible before I hang this whole thing up and retire.

Andrew Huberman: Man, well, you are absolutely helping a ton of people, and today's discussion is just going to amplify that. I have to say I'm immensely grateful for you.

Andrew Huberman: I felt a kinship with you from the very first time I saw you on Sean's podcast because you mentioned the skateboarding thing, and I think I heard the words that you prefer dogs to people sometimes.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: I think you've embraced people as well. And your love of dogs, that was the hook, and then, we have some common friends in the Teams community that I respect very much, some of whom have been guests, others who are still behind the veil.

Andrew Huberman: But your message is so important. You have very high standards for yourself, and you meet those standards, and you're constantly trying to meet and exceed those standards.

Andrew Huberman: And it's also very clear that you've learned, this is this unconscious genius part about, maybe it's teams, maybe it's just some people in it, but it's clearly very alive in you,

Andrew Huberman: that you learn to use physical decisions, real world, actionable, implementable decisions

Andrew Huberman: to create internal change so that you can engage with the world in more functional and more meaningful ways. It's like the waking up early thing.

Andrew Huberman: I confess I've been a little weak on the waking up early thing, prioritizing sleep, and this kind of thing. And there's also a strong antidepressant effect of waking up early that I've noticed, and that exists in the literature.

DJ Shipley: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman: So I'm going to get back to that. I'm definitely going to do the GBRS program. I'm hoping other people will as well. Again, it's not a promotional for that.

Andrew Huberman: I think how amazing would it be if, as a country, people started to really take their physical body seriously, not expect some package to arrive on their doorstep if they were to take that pill or that thing, and suddenly they were going to be healthy?

Andrew Huberman: And instead, to really just lean into these 20-minute walks, sunlight, the GBRS program sounds like an awesome way to get all around fitness and to maintain that for a lifetime. I just want to thank you for everything you're doing.

Andrew Huberman: You've definitely opened up on an emotional level to the world today and elsewhere. You've opened up your protocols.

Andrew Huberman: You've made it very clear that you're human, that you're not perfect, and that despite all that, you're still going to keep striving, striving, striving.

Andrew Huberman: It's a magnificent example at every level. So I'm really, really grateful for coming out here.

DJ Shipley: I appreciate that.

DJ Shipley: I got something I want to give you.

Andrew Huberman: For me?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: Slide you those.

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

DJ Shipley: So I'm going to tell you the backstory real quick.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So we started doing in-house embroidery, and we wanted to do an American flag hat, but we sit down with Tyler Milliken.

DJ Shipley: He runs all our stuff, and we've got an apprentice, Sophia, that does all our embroidery in-house, six-head embroidery machine, and we wanted to do an American flag hat. And I got so... I'm going to try not to get upset.

DJ Shipley: I get so sick of people ordering American flag patches off Amazon from China and border stitching them on hats and letting that be a patriotic symbol. It drives-

Andrew Huberman: Is that how it's typically done?

DJ Shipley: Yeah. I mean, you can go to Amazon. I can buy 500 of those for-

Andrew Huberman: And those are made in China?

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

DJ Shipley: And I can border stitch them on there. I can hot glue them on there. And we've got this embroidery machine, and Tyler's a wizard with just embroidery files and everything else, and we were like, "Let's make the American flag hat. It's not going to be a border stitch. It's not going to be a patch we sew on this thing.

DJ Shipley: Like, what's it going to be?" And he looked right at me, and he goes, "I can make you the hat, but we are never going to make money on it." And I was like, "I'm not about making money."

DJ Shipley: And he's like, "Well, I can't mass produce them either." I was like, "The hat and the story I'm going to tell is not meant for mass production."

DJ Shipley: So when he launched those hats, that hat is almost 24,000 individual stitches. It takes 60 minutes just to make the flag.

DJ Shipley: The quality control that goes inside that, if a single thread is pulled, rolled, anything, we cancel it. We toss it.

DJ Shipley: But that hat, and I say it's a-

Andrew Huberman: Oh, it's actually stitched into the back. I see what you're saying. It's not a patch stitched onto a hat. It is the hat.

DJ Shipley: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: No.

DJ Shipley: It is.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

DJ Shipley: And-

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

DJ Shipley: You know, when we first dropped those things, I told everybody. I was like, "This hat is for the people that get emotional when they hear the national anthem.

DJ Shipley: This hat is for the people whose children say the Pledge of Allegiance with hand over heart, that go to the baseball games, they have a visceral response when they hear the national anthem played. They're not kneeling at football games. They're not playing all the left side and right side.

DJ Shipley: They are patriotic Americans." And I told him, "If you are going to wear this hat and let anything poisonous come out of your mouth while you're wearing that hat, I will fly there, and I'll snatch it off your head.

DJ Shipley: Everything you're going to do needs to represent what you think the essence of America is.

DJ Shipley: Everything that flows out of your mouth while you're wearing that hat better be done with dignity and respect because a lot of brave men and women have sacrificed everything just for that little piece of cloth." So we don't mass produce them. We drop them a couple times a year.

DJ Shipley: We'll do like a Be A Pro drop couple different times, and they fly like wildfire. And it's so cool to see because the people that know, they know.

DJ Shipley: Like, we have done so much for that flag, and I hate seeing it being misrepresented in any way, shape, or form. You do it in a beautiful light. I would love for you to have those.

DJ Shipley: So those came from the boys at GBRS, and I know that when you wear them, you'll preach the gospel and you'll represent the American people in a beautiful way, but if you don't, I will fly out here, and I'll snatch them off your head like I will anybody else. But-

Andrew Huberman: I believe you.

DJ Shipley: But those things, those represent, we've got a bunch of patriots and a bunch of veterans that work inside with us, so every time we do that drop, the entire company, when we're 40-something people strong now, and when that hat comes out,

DJ Shipley: everybody can feel it. Like beating the war drum on just being a good patriot, and I know I isolate it for just Americans, but the overall message is I want everyone to be a patriot.

DJ Shipley: Everyone in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, France, if you have ownership and you are patriotic of where you come from, you represent it so much better than anyone else.

DJ Shipley: If I've never met a person from Australia, and I go there and I meet one person, it's a positive experience, for the rest of my days, I'll talk about that experience.

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

DJ Shipley: So when I wear that hat, I try to represent what I want the American people to be like. So when somebody meets me from, you know, Zimbabwe, and I'm wearing that hat, that interaction is going to be the best I can possibly be because of the weight of that thing sitting on my head.

DJ Shipley: Yeah, when I came out here, you know, I was telling the boys, like, "I've got to bring Andrew a hat." And they spun them up real quick. We don't drop those things till November, but I wanted you to have the first one. So thank you for everything, and thanks for having me on, man.

Andrew Huberman: Oh, man. Thank you. I'm honored. I will wear it, and I will meet, and I will strive to exceed the standard that you describe, and I fully believe that if I don't, you'll come out here and kick my ass.

DJ Shipley: Humbled.

DJ Shipley: I will.

Andrew Huberman: That's part of the deal. We can also provide a link to where you guys make these.

Andrew Huberman: And, yeah. Again, I just really want to thank you. It's clear that quality and standards is in your DNA, and it's in, more importantly, it's in everything you do, right down to the hats.

Andrew Huberman: So, thank you so much, DJ. Come back again.

DJ Shipley: I will. Thank you so much.

Andrew Huberman: Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with DJ Shipley. To find links to his website as well as the links to the fitness program that we described, please see the show note captions.

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Andrew Huberman: I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."

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Andrew Huberman: And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

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Andrew Huberman: Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with DJ Shipley. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.